In the Peloponnesian Wars, which side do you think was in the moral highground? While Athens did represent democracy, their Delian League was administered and run completely as a de facto empire. Sparta on the other hand was complete opposite of Athens, but claimed to be fighting for Greek freedoms.
Peloponnesian War: Athens or Sparta
- Thread starter Guerrilla Republik
- Start date
Athens.
Not because of their supposed "democracy", but to vote against Sparta which was basicly the BC Nazis... Or maybe 30's and 40's japan is a better comparison, I'm not sure...
Ummm... yeah...
There were no good guys in the Peloponnesian War. And Athens definitely didn't have any sort of moral high ground since it was the city's naked imperialism that helped kick it off...
There were no good guys in the Peloponnesian War. And Athens definitely didn't have any sort of moral high ground since it was the city's naked imperialism that helped kick it off...
Both sides claimed to be representing the freedoms of Greek people, which side had a better claim to it?
Sparta!! all the way. Athenians although they are in democracy but weak militarily and sometimes politically divided.
Alex Richards
Donor
Let's see:
Athens- Democratic core, but treated the League of Delmos as de facto colonies.
Sparta- Treated several neighbouring states as de jure colonies, had as an initaition right 'capture a neighbouring city's men to be your slave' and was essentially seeking to replace Athenian hegemony with Spartan hegemony (though this may have been a slightly better position).
On balance, Athens by a slight margin.
Athens- Democratic core, but treated the League of Delmos as de facto colonies.
Sparta- Treated several neighbouring states as de jure colonies, had as an initaition right 'capture a neighbouring city's men to be your slave' and was essentially seeking to replace Athenian hegemony with Spartan hegemony (though this may have been a slightly better position).
On balance, Athens by a slight margin.
I would go with Athens because of the Spartan way of life, killing 'non-prefect' babies for example. All you need to do is look at the stunning Theban triumph over the Spartans to know what their policies lead to in times of low birth rate. Also the Spartans had enslaved the Messenians for centuries and killed them for fun. So Athens has the moral highground by far.
archaeogeek
Banned
It was killing actually, the people of said neighbouring city were already slaves of Sparta.
Ahh, but here's where it gets complicated. Sparta treated the helots like crap, and--well, by our standards it was a pretty nasty to live. But--until the War starts up--it was firmly wedded to the independence of its fellow city-states. Athens, on the other hand--has its 'democracy'--which from our point of view is more oligarchic, but hey--there were Athenians who wanted it worse--but is actively trying to turn most of Greece into its own little empire, and trying to stamp out all competition. And both become significantly worse as the thing drags on. So I stand with Thucydides... nobody was fighting for freedom, nobody was right, nobody had any edge.
archaeogeek
Banned
Sparta was propping puppet oligarchies everyone it put its fingers, and by the standards of the day the treatment of the helots was disgusting: when Epaminondas showed the Spartans how you fight a war, he'd make "restoring the freedom of Messenia" one of his top achievements.
Both were pretty bad anyway, admittedly.
Of course, the lot of the average slave in the Athenian silver mines was at best only marginally better than the Spartan helot. For what it's worth, Sparta was also ahead of the curve when it came to women's rights.
The Hellots were hunted for sport by some Spartans and that was something that the Athenian slaves didn't have to go through. Also remember the Spartans commited mass infanticide which disgusted the Ancient world. Western civilisation didn't begin in Sparta, it began in Athens.
Using modern morality when dealing with Ancient Greece never ends well for anyone concerned. I would marginally give it to the Athenians, due to all the greatness of their philosophers, playwrights and so on, in founding Western Civilization as we know it today. That said, stripping hindsight away, the gap narrows almost to nothingness. Still very, very marginally towards the Athenians, mostly because I like them because I'm writing a fantasy story based on classical Athens/Republican Rome. (PM me for a link if you're interested, it's in fictionpress, a second chapter is fairly near completion!)
So, yes. Athens. What lovely characters I can play around with!
So, yes. Athens. What lovely characters I can play around with!
Which is my point. Yes, Sparta was horrible, especially to our modern eyes. But the view I keep reading here goes on about philosophers and playwrights, while ignoring the fact that these symbols of Athenian enlightenment tended to state fairly loudly 'We suck, and this whole mess is our fault'. (Also, lots of bringing up of the Helots, while ignoring the whole Melos affair.) Also--yes, by the end whatever beliefs Sparta had had about 'Free Greece' had pretty much subsided into 'Let's rule it all! Badly!'
Looking for a 'good guy' in the Peloponnesian War is a futile exercise to my mind. If you ask me who should win--I'd say neither. Which is ultimately what happened. Go THEBES!
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Like Iran fighting Iraq in the eighties. The Fascist dictator or the quasi religious democracy that's not a democracy at all.
Rex Romanum
Banned
GO MACEDON!!!
Who care about philosophy and infanticide?!
All hail King Alexander III the Great!!!
(sorry, couldn't resist)