I don't know if AHP is a Turkish or not, but his name in the real world is John, IIRC.
Overview of Muslims in America
- Thread starter Avicenna
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I don't know if AHP is a Turkish or not, but his name in the real world is John, IIRC.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
John or Can, depending on where you are. Abdülhadi really is my middle name, though.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
I guess that makes sense re: four schools - although in an American context conflict between their various interpretations is likely to become more of an issue, which might be an interesting thing to explore. In an Islamic society before recently, law is very libertarian, in that it is only applied to people who appeal to it - for instance, if someone is murdered, the victim's family have to file a suit to bring the murderer to justice - the system doesn't do it automatically. So, you can choose between the schools. In the USA, you can't have several parallel legal systems, so different groups will have to struggle to have the laws written to reflect their interpretations.
With regard to the Turkish nationalist thing, I understand what you're saying, but you're still dealing with 20th c ideas, that in OTL were not really developed until deep into the century. Remember that Ataturk is only "Turkish" in retrospect - in reality he was Macedonian or maybe Albanian - ditto for most Ottoman statesmen and intellectuals. Of the first generation of Young Turks, only one was actually ethnically Turkish.
A lot of this comes from the European habit of using "Turk" and "Muslim" interchangeably.
With regard to the Turkish nationalist thing, I understand what you're saying, but you're still dealing with 20th c ideas, that in OTL were not really developed until deep into the century. Remember that Ataturk is only "Turkish" in retrospect - in reality he was Macedonian or maybe Albanian - ditto for most Ottoman statesmen and intellectuals. Of the first generation of Young Turks, only one was actually ethnically Turkish.
A lot of this comes from the European habit of using "Turk" and "Muslim" interchangeably.
While it is an interesting TL, I wonder why exactly the United States of the late 19th century allows so many Turks and Arabs to immigrate considering laws like the Chinese Exclusion Act.
Also, I find it hard to believe that these people move to the cold West, where they would be unused to the climate and weather. I would think they would move to the Southwest, where more arid conditions prevail.
Lastly, what happens to all of the immigrants from countries such as Italy and Russia? You mentioned Canada, but conditions in the US were much more pleasant than those of Canada. In addition, what about immigrants from Eastern Europe. Where do they go? How do the immigrants get from the Middle-East to America? On Native lines or European lines?
I imagine the United States would be poorer in this timeline as the immigrants to the United States would have been poorer than in our own timeline. I also imagine there would have been massive immigration of Europeans to Africa, in lieu of America. South Africa, Algeria, and Libya might have substantial white minorities.
(I am aware that there was extensive Lebanese immigration to the United States around this era, although most Lebanese assimilated very quickly. For example, there were very many Lebanese families in the Mississippi Delta, but almost all were Christians, and anglicized their names.)
Also, I find it hard to believe that these people move to the cold West, where they would be unused to the climate and weather. I would think they would move to the Southwest, where more arid conditions prevail.
Lastly, what happens to all of the immigrants from countries such as Italy and Russia? You mentioned Canada, but conditions in the US were much more pleasant than those of Canada. In addition, what about immigrants from Eastern Europe. Where do they go? How do the immigrants get from the Middle-East to America? On Native lines or European lines?
I imagine the United States would be poorer in this timeline as the immigrants to the United States would have been poorer than in our own timeline. I also imagine there would have been massive immigration of Europeans to Africa, in lieu of America. South Africa, Algeria, and Libya might have substantial white minorities.
(I am aware that there was extensive Lebanese immigration to the United States around this era, although most Lebanese assimilated very quickly. For example, there were very many Lebanese families in the Mississippi Delta, but almost all were Christians, and anglicized their names.)
Hendryk
Banned
It sure would be nice if all that Asian immigration butterflied away anti-Chinese legislation. Then the Pacific states would have a Chinese plurality
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
The details haven't been hashed out yet, but it could be analogous to the Irish immigrants from OTL and their vociferous stance against going to war on the same side as the British Empire.
MrP
Banned
Aye, I was thinking about the German minority in WWI, too. I was just vaguely wondering what effect the religious element would have. I think the British were a bit nervy about putting Indian Muslim soldiers into battle against the Ottomans - though they certainly sent some Indian soldiers thataway - they might've been Hindus, of course. I was just wondering whether it might see America technically not declaring war on the Ottomans, but only on Germany, A-H, Bulgaria and so on.
Well, there is always a South American option. Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, and the other countries in a smaller extent, all them would surely want more immigrants.
Chris
Banned
It sure would be nice if all that Asian immigration butterflied away anti-Chinese legislation. Then the Pacific states would have a Chinese plurality
A lot of the public would STILL have unplesent opinions.
Chris
It sure would be nice if all that Asian immigration butterflied away anti-Chinese legislation. Then the Pacific states would have a Chinese plurality
I agree, as a fellow Sinophile, I think that would be nice too.
Sargon
Glen
Moderator
Interesting idea, but you really do need a set of specific divergences to explain how this comes about, before getting into your very interesting depiction of the developments into the modern era.
Still, I encourage you to keep it up!
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
A few thoughts for just HOW all these Muslims come to America.
First, why not have Egyptians, Iraqis, Javanese, or Muslim Indians be the builders of railroads and mine laborers in the early West? Stronger anti-Chinese sentiment or a stronger Chinese empire that's reluctant to export laborers could explain this. Even if the majority of these Muslims go home, a foothold will have been established.
In OTL, there was a huge migration of black Southerners to the cities of the North. This followed the imposition of immigration restrictions in 1924. The factors which led to this OTL restriction are obviously different in this TL, but perhaps the fear of the "Red Menace" leads to early restrictions on European immigrants. The Muslims also take the place of blacks in major cities, either because African-Americans prefer to remain in a happy shiny tolerant South, or because Northern sentiment against blacks is stronger than against foreign Muslims.
Just a couple thoughts. Please keep this up, I look forward to each update!
First, why not have Egyptians, Iraqis, Javanese, or Muslim Indians be the builders of railroads and mine laborers in the early West? Stronger anti-Chinese sentiment or a stronger Chinese empire that's reluctant to export laborers could explain this. Even if the majority of these Muslims go home, a foothold will have been established.
In OTL, there was a huge migration of black Southerners to the cities of the North. This followed the imposition of immigration restrictions in 1924. The factors which led to this OTL restriction are obviously different in this TL, but perhaps the fear of the "Red Menace" leads to early restrictions on European immigrants. The Muslims also take the place of blacks in major cities, either because African-Americans prefer to remain in a happy shiny tolerant South, or because Northern sentiment against blacks is stronger than against foreign Muslims.
Just a couple thoughts. Please keep this up, I look forward to each update!
Hendryk
Banned
Something I overlooked when I first read that part: why hold the meeting in what was at the time a remote frontier settlement? I'm not even sure the Sioux were gone from the region in 1852, and the only way to get there must have been a days-long journey in horse-drawn wagon. The region only became accessible by railway in the 1870s.
So while "Council of Pierre" does have a nice ring to it, it seems to me that such a gathering would have been more likely to take place in one of the Eastern states.