Ottomans Added In Congress Of Vienna and Concert of Europe

[Incanian]

The Ottomans for a reason I don't know were not included in the Congress of Vienna, and Concert of Europe. But what if they had? I assume they were not due to Russian expansion in the Ottoman Empire still ripe. But let's just say they are added, what are the effects?

 

[FillyofDelphi]

The reason they weren't is because they weren't a party at the Congress of Vienna where the ideas of the Concert were laid down and the lines drawn on the accepted balance of power. To get the Sublime State included, you'd need to get them into one of the last Cohalitons

 

[JCVocke]

You would probably need Napoleon to try to set up some Poland Style Clients in the Balkans in order to get The Ottomans really involved. Anything else, like Egypt, is likely to be considered not worth discussing at the Congress. It would boil down to "And the Ottomans are going to Re-Annex Egypt from France" "Well Yeah Duh".

However if Napoleon has set up some Client State in the Balkans composed of territory from both Austria and The Ottomans, then that will require some degree of negotiation. Romania is probably your best bet for this. Perhaps Napoleon decides he is going to try to break Austria Apart, but being unable to find someone suitable to take the Hungarian Throne who isn't Loyal to the Habsburgs he tries Romania instead. Then hostilities break out between him and The Ottomans, possibly over a remaining French Egypt, and he takes the Danubian Principalities and adds them to his new Romanian State after beating back The Ottomans a bit.

This could probably Delay but not Prevent relations with Russia from souring, leading to a relatively OTL Russian Campaign and Retreat. So you still wind up with a Congress of Vienna that The Ottomans are invited to.

 

[Incanian]

The reason they weren't is because they weren't a party at the Congress of Vienna where the ideas of the Concert were laid down and the lines drawn on the accepted balance of power. To get the Sublime State included, you'd need to get them into one of the last Cohalitons

Isn't that a major flaw in the Concert, because if the situation of the Ottomans was not clearly defined, it leads to the Eastern question?

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Isn't that a major flaw in the Concert, because if the situation of the Ottomans was not clearly defined, it leads to the Eastern question?

You would probably need Napoleon to try to set up some Poland Style Clients in the Balkans in order to get The Ottomans really involved. Anything else, like Egypt, is likely to be considered not worth discussing at the Congress. It would boil down to "And the Ottomans are going to Re-Annex Egypt from France" "Well Yeah Duh".

However if Napoleon has set up some Client State in the Balkans composed of territory from both Austria and The Ottomans, then that will require some degree of negotiation. Romania is probably your best bet for this. Perhaps Napoleon decides he is going to try to break Austria Apart, but being unable to find someone suitable to take the Hungarian Throne who isn't Loyal to the Habsburgs he tries Romania instead. Then hostilities break out between him and The Ottomans, possibly over a remaining French Egypt, and he takes the Danubian Principalities and adds them to his new Romanian State after beating back The Ottomans a bit.

This could probably Delay but not Prevent relations with Russia from souring, leading to a relatively OTL Russian Campaign and Retreat. So you still wind up with a Congress of Vienna that The Ottomans are invited to.

The Ottomans for a reason I don't know were not included in the Congress of Vienna, and Concert of Europe. But what if they had? I assume they were not due to Russian expansion in the Ottoman Empire still ripe. But let's just say they are added, what are the effects?

There was some sort of alliance between Russia and the Ottomans in the late 18th century against France. Butterflying away the war of 1806-1812 will change a lot so let's not use that. Let say the Russo-Turkish Alliance lives on once again after the war. That may be a trigger to go to war against Napoleon. Not sure if it will be helpful at all or just remain a symbolic alliance.

This is just a theory. I am not sure if Alexander I is interested in an alliance after the war. It may safeguard the South even though the Ottomans were already beaten.

In case the Ottomans are added to the concert... they won't gain much. The Serbs will be abandoned by Russia and Mahmud II can restore direct rule there. A maximum will be the former Republic of Ragusa added to it and Maaaaaybeee some of the Ionian Islands although I don't see Britain giving those up really.

What France could do is use the Danube Principalities and the Serb rebels of Karađorđe Petrovic. The last is kinda unlikely.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

The reason they weren't is because they weren't a party at the Congress of Vienna where the ideas of the Concert were laid down and the lines drawn on the accepted balance of power. To get the Sublime State included, you'd need to get them into one of the last Cohalitons

And how would that be? I can't think of any European nation to invite the Ottomans.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Isn't that a major flaw in the Concert, because if the situation of the Ottomans was not clearly defined, it leads to the Eastern question?

They'd have needed a crystal ball; The Eastern Question wasen't something that existed in 1815. Sure, the Ottomans may be going through a rough patch, but every Great Power had its periods where it wasen't quite at the top of its game but would eventually recover once it pulled back behyond its point of overextension or they went through some reforms (Like the recent Ottoman Sultans had been trying to do). It was really only after the Ottoman-Egyptian War and Oriental Crisis that the possability the decline might be terminal was seriously considered in Europe's courts.

And how would that be? I can't think of any European nation to invite the Ottomans.

You'd need butterflies in the Napoleonic Wars, probably as early as the War of the 2nd Cohalition. If the Turkish troops make a better showing, and the Janissaries don't stage a palace coup and stall out the reforms/restructuring, the British might decide at some point they could be a useful party to subsidize for a land army provided they avoid some earlier wars with Russia.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

They'd have needed a crystal ball; The Eastern Question wasen't something that existed in 1815. Sure, the Ottomans may be going through a rough patch, but every Great Power had its periods where it wasen't quite at the top of its game but would eventually recover once it pulled back behyond its point of overextension or they went through some reforms (Like the recent Ottoman Sultans had been trying to do). It was really only after the Ottoman-Egyptian War and Oriental Crisis that the possability the decline might be terminal was seriously considered in Europe's courts.



You'd need butterflies in the Napoleonic Wars, probably as early as the War of the 2nd Cohalition. If the Turkish troops make a better showing, and the Janissaries don't stage a palace coup and stall out the reforms/restructuring, the British might decide at some point they could be a useful party to subsidize for a land army provided they avoid some earlier wars with Russia.

That may pretty much butterfly the Vienna Congress but I guess you're right. There is no better chance.

 

[raharris1973]

They were added to the concert of Europe after the Crimean War. Of course the concert was not too meaningful by then. And since the Congress of Berlin was about their troubles, they were not there as an equal either.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

There was multiple reasons for their exclusion. First, the Ottomans played no role in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars other than the Egyptian adventure, so they had no reason to expect a say in affairs that didn't affect them. Second, they were Muslim. Tsar Alexander, and to a lesser extent the Austrians, Prussians and the Vatican, had a big issue with infidels getting a voice on the affairs of good Christian nations; remember that during the Congress of Vienna Alexander was swinging towards full blown reactionary Mysticism. Third, Alexander was also concerned that the Turks could try to regain Bessarabia (and their dominant position in the Danubian Principalities), which Russia annexed under the Treaty of Bucharest in 1812. There could be a strong argument that Russia only gained this territory due to their alliance with Napoléon. This would also open up potential Swedish claims to Russian annexed Finland as well. People forget that Russia gained the lions share of territory during the French wars, especially when they used their Napoléonic alliance as a smokescreen. Finally there's the fact that the Turks had no real friends among the Great powers. Their closest ally for centuries had been France, and the French were in no position to support the Sublime Porte at this stage (even if they wanted to) and this was before it became official British policy to prop up Istanbul. So in summery it was a combination of the Turks having no claim to a seat at the table, no allies willing to go to bat for them and deep Russian opposition.

As for joining one of the coalitions, problem with this was their six year war with the Russians; any great power allying with them would forfeit Russia as a friend. MAYBE the Turks could join the Sixth Coalition alongside Austria, maybe sending a corps as well, but IDK about the state of their military after the Russian war.

 

[raharris1973]

I can't think of any European nation to invite the Ottomans.

The Austrians really should have thought of this and advocated for it. I don't see why it would be hard to swallow for Britain, France, or even Prussia either.