Ottoman Conversion?

[Chengar Qordath]

Does anyone know when/if the Ottomans ever seriously considered converting from Islam to Orthodox Christianity? I have a vague recollection of some Ottoman ruler having considered it at some point, but I can't recall any details and I'm not completely certain I remember correctly.

To make a proper AH question out of it ... what if they do convert?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

No, they never considered it - Islam was the basis of the empire. It would be like Vatican City converting to Islam.

Mehmed II invited theologians from various faiths to court because he enjoyed theology, not because he intended to convert. The idea that he might was just wishful thinking on the part of the West. It was simply an impossibility.

Does anyone know when/if the Ottomans ever seriously considered converting from Islam to Orthodox Christianity? I have a vague recollection of some Ottoman ruler having considered it at some point, but I can't recall any details and I'm not completely certain I remember correctly.

To make a proper AH question out of it ... what if they do convert?

 

[Ridwan Asher]

You better hide before AHP or Keenir finds out this thread !

EDIT : Oops.. too late...

Aaah... another victim of wikipedia you are, Chengar, I suppose ?

 

[Chengar Qordath]

No, they never considered it - Islam was the basis of the empire. It would be like Vatican City converting to Islam.

Mehmed II invited theologians from various faiths to court because he enjoyed theology, not because he intended to convert. The idea that he might was just wishful thinking on the part of the West. It was simply an impossibility.

Right then, I vaguely recalled reading something several years ago that mentioned the possibility; most likely it was Mehmed inviting theologians like you mentioned and the wishful thinking it produced.

And Xeno, I had rather been hoping that one of the forum's Turkish experts would notice the thread, seeing as they would be the best people to get an answer from.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I think I may have a reputation for being grumpy - but a reasonable question won't get an angry response out of me.

BTW, I think it was Catholicism that everyone hoped Mehmed would convert to. When the capital was moved to Constantinople, which had a large Italian community on the other side of the Golden Horn (Galata), and an increasingly large number of Catholics settling or trading in his territory, he was interested in learning more about their faith.

There weren't enough Catholics to justify a Millet for quite some time, and they were put under the juristiction of the Armenian Patriarchate.

Right then, I vaguely recalled reading something several years ago that mentioned the possibility; most likely it was Mehmed inviting theologians like you mentioned and the wishful thinking it produced.

And Xeno, I had rather been hoping that one of the forum's Turkish experts would notice the thread, seeing as they would be the best people to get an answer from.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

I think I may have a reputation for being grumpy - but a reasonable question won't get an angry response out of me.

BTW, I think it was Catholicism that everyone hoped Mehmed would convert to. When the capital was moved to Constantinople, which had a large Italian community on the other side of the Golden Horn (Galata), and an increasingly large number of Catholics settling or trading in his territory, he was interested in learning more about their faith.

There weren't enough Catholics to justify a Millet for quite some time, and they were put under the juristiction of the Armenian Patriarchate.

So ... if I wanted a grumpy response I should have asked something like "What if the heathen, uncivilized, dirty barbarian Turks finally accepted the light of civilization and Christianity?"

I doubt a conversion to Catholicism would go over very well with any of the Ottoman subjects; Orthodox Christians were at least a large part of the Empire's population and reasonably well established, whereas the Catholic population was miniscule and largely traders. On the other hand, I suppose that with the last vestiges of the Roman Empire gone and Russia still divided and dominated by the mongols a coversion to Catholic Christianity would make more sense from a foreign policy point of view; there are a lot more Catholic nations to improve relations with than Orthodox ones.

 

[Keenir]

So ... if I wanted a grumpy response I should have asked something like "What if the heathen, uncivilized, dirty barbarian Turks finally accepted the light of civilization and Christianity?"

I doubt they could convert to Islam and Christianity.

On the other hand, I suppose that with the last vestiges of the Roman Empire gone and Russia still divided and dominated by the mongols a coversion to Catholic Christianity would make more sense from a foreign policy point of view; there are a lot more Catholic nations to improve relations with than Orthodox ones.

by that right, they should convert to Shia Islam (there's Persia right next door, and more than one Ottoman Sultan was on good terms with the Shah)

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

If the Sultan tried to convert to Catholicism, he'd have a bowstring around his neck so fast it would make your head spin. Actually, that would be so looney they might just stick him in a monastery as a crazy person and replace him. A lot of Orthodox semi-welcomed the Ottomans precisely because they weren't Catholic!

So ... if I wanted a grumpy response I should have asked something like "What if the heathen, uncivilized, dirty barbarian Turks finally accepted the light of civilization and Christianity?"

I doubt a conversion to Catholicism would go over very well with any of the Ottoman subjects; Orthodox Christians were at least a large part of the Empire's population and reasonably well established, whereas the Catholic population was miniscule and largely traders. On the other hand, I suppose that with the last vestiges of the Roman Empire gone and Russia still divided and dominated by the mongols a coversion to Catholic Christianity would make more sense from a foreign policy point of view; there are a lot more Catholic nations to improve relations with than Orthodox ones.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

If the Sultan tried to convert to Catholicism, he'd have a bowstring around his neck so fast it would make your head spin. Actually, that would be so looney they might just stick him in a monastery as a crazy person and replace him. A lot of Orthodox semi-welcomed the Ottomans precisely because they weren't Catholic!

Yeah, I pretty much assumed that a conversion to Catholicism would be tantamount to suicide for any Ottoman Sultan; there is no domestic population of Catholics, his Orthodox subjects hate Catholics, and his Muslim subjects would hate any Sultan that converted. An Orthodox conversion, though still somewhere between extremely dangerous and near-suicidal, could at least possibly draw on enough Orthodox Christians to give the Sultan a domestic base of power in the inevitable civil war/coup that would follow.

As far as Orthodox-Catholic relations, wasn't there a common saying among the Greeks along the lines that it was "better to be ruled by a turban than a mitre"? I recall hearing some story that a couple years ago when the Pope was in Greece there were actually protesters bringing up the Fourth Crusade; holding a grudge for 800 years is ... impressive.

 

[Valdemar II]

As far as Orthodox-Catholic relations, wasn't there a common saying among the Greeks along the lines that it was "better to be ruled by a turban than a mitre"? I recall hearing some story that a couple years ago when the Pope was in Greece there were actually protesters bringing up the Fourth Crusade; holding a grudge for 800 years is ... impressive.

You are not European, right

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

You are not European, right

You have to admit, though, if there's something to hold a grudge for, that's it.

 

[Valdemar II]

You have to admit, though, if there's something to hold a grudge for, that's it.

I could not agree more.

 

[Leo Caesius]

My Hebrew instructor, who was an Israeli, once told me a story about entertaining the Italian ambassador for a dinner once. Her daughter, who was just a child of a few years at the time, heard that she would be meeting the ambassador from Rome and got very upset. She asked her, "How could you do such a thing?!?" She couldn't understand why her daughter was getting so upset, so she asked her, and her daughter responded, "The Romans destroyed the Temple, that's why!"

 

[Empror Mike]

And who was it that rebelled against the Romans?

 

[Keenir]

And who was it that rebelled against the Romans?

the extremists!

 

[Tyr]

Maybe if you make the empire weak in a time when religion still matters and the sultan is still the supreme ruler?
Then perhaps in one of the succession feuds you could have one son getting support from christians in exchange for conversion.
It wouldn't be very clean though to put it mildly...

 

[Nicole]

Maybe if you make the empire weak in a time when religion still matters and the sultan is still the supreme ruler?
Then perhaps in one of the succession feuds you could have one son getting support from christians in exchange for conversion.
It wouldn't be very clean though to put it mildly...

I suppose the "Empire" in this case would probably just end up some tiny principality held under total control of it's European overlords... It doesn't seem like a stable situation.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Maybe if you make the empire weak in a time when religion still matters and the sultan is still the supreme ruler?
Then perhaps in one of the succession feuds you could have one son getting support from christians in exchange for conversion.
It wouldn't be very clean though to put it mildly...

There tends to be a persistent idea that the Sultans were absolutist monarchs, but the reality was this is far from the truth. Western monarchs had the divine right to rule, but in Islam, while a "divine right" was there, you forfeit it by being incompetent, insane, disabled, senile, cowardly, and most especially, not that this ever happened, apostate. There were no regencies in Islam. If you were not fit to rule, you didn't. If your father died when you were too young to assume the throne, an older male of the dynasty got it.

A Sultan had no ability to convert the empire to another religion. If the Pope suddenly converted to Islam and declared that all Catholics were now Muslims too, would that work?

Support from abroad would just make it worse - not only would he be an apostate, he'd also be a tool of infidel powers and a traitor.

By converting, he would in the eyes of everyone utterly and irrevocably forfeit his right to rule, not to mention his life.