Opinions of Late Roman Army?

Opinions of Late Roman Army?

Been reading in a number of books and articles on the late Roman Army and was interested in your thoughts. I'm eager to hear your opinions on anything ranging from strategy, tactics, equipment, organization....

Few topics I was thinking about:
Reduction of Roman Legions size
Increase in the size of entire military during late 3rd and 4th century
Military reforms of Diocletian and Constantine
Disbandment of the Praetorian Guard
Comitateses and Limitanei
Role of religion
Barbarisation
Overall issues that were and weren't improved

Frontal defence on the frontier to repel invasions vs mobile defence in depth, focusing on cities, to cut off penetrations/annihilate invaders:
The 5th-century historian Zosimus strongly criticised the establishment of the large comitatus, accusing Constantine of wrecking his predecessor Diocletian's work of strengthening the border defences: "By the foresight of Diocletian, the frontiers of the Roman empire were everywhere studded with cities and forts and towers... and the whole army was stationed along them, so it was impossible for the barbarians to break through... But Constantine ruined this defensive system by withdrawing the majority of the troops from the frontiers and stationing them in cities which did not require protection."[78] Zosimus' critique is probably excessive, both because thecomitatus already existed in Diocletian's time and because some new regiments were raised by Constantine for his expanded comitatus, as well as incorporating existing units.[79] Nevertheless, the majority of his comitatus was drawn from existing frontier units.[66]This drawdown of large numbers of the best units inevitably increased the risk of successful large-scale barbarian breaches of the frontier defences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Roman_army#Constantine

Interested in your thoughts, thanks in advance.:)
 
Couldn't even beat lower numbers of Germanics armed with inferior equipment. Comitatus presentales kept so far in the back they never got to fight anyone except usurpers. Low energy. Sad.
 
Couldn't even beat lower numbers of Germanics armed with inferior equipment. Comitatus presentales kept so far in the back they never got to fight anyone except usurpers. Low energy. Sad.
Where did you even get this information from?The Western Roman army,even into the 400s,continued to win battles.The Eastern Roman army continued to be a formidable force and actually re-conquered a large portion of western provinces in the 500s.
 
Where did you even get this information from?The Western Roman army,even into the 400s,continued to win battles.
The Nazis continued to win battles well into 1945. So?

Their purpose was to protect the power of their rulers and the safety of their countrymen. And yet, they allowed wannabe generalissimos to usurp the power of the Emperor in the west and utterly failed to protect anything that wasn't behind the Theodosian Walls, as there's no place other than Constantinople that wasn't occupied by a foreign power at one point or another during Late Antiquity.

Also, are you talking about the "re-conquest" that destroyed the very same Italy it was meant to liberate?

EDIT: obviously, I'm exaggerating a bit for comedic effect, and while it wasn't total 100% shit, let's not pretend the Late Roman Army didn't drop the ball when it came to defending the Empire
 

PhilippeO

Banned
The problem is Politics, Economics and Demographic. Roman Empire post 3rd century simply could not support larger more expensive army. And persistent problem of succession is political problem, not military.
They perform quite good, with sophisticated tactic and weaponry, but simply inadequate to problem in North and East.
 
I'm actually a bit sceptical of the idea that the Late Roman army was larger than that of the principate. The Roman army of the 4th and 5th centuries generally preferred to fight using raids and ambushes rather than the decisive battles of earlier centuries, which might suggest that they no longer enjoyed the manpower resources of previous centuries. Also, they seem to have had a lot of difficulty recovering after a major defeat -- it took several years after Adrianople for the Roman army in the Balkans to get back into fighting shape, for example, and even then they weren't capable of decisively defeating the Goths.
 
The fact is they needed Cavalry forces to be better used and positioned better than what they were. The Romans used Cavalry as a way to cheap out on border guards. They were widely dispersed and ended up being highly ineffective. Had they concentrated the Cavalry they would have done better.
 
Few topics I was thinking about:
1- Reduction of Roman Legions size
2- Increase in the size of entire military during late 3rd and 4th century
3- Military reforms of Diocletian and Constantine
4- Disbandment of the Praetorian Guard
5- Comitateses and Limitanei
6- Role of religion
7- Barbarisation
8- Overall issues that were and weren't improved

1- It was needed. Five thousand men formations are great for field campaigns and great battles but when most of the fighting is done in small skirmishes the size of the legion would work against itself.

With the 1000 men legion the Roman army gained flexibility and its ability to fight off small raiding parties improved.

2- This point is problematic. As someone will probably point out the two main lines of thought on the size is either the Larger Imperial Army or the Smaller Imperial Army.

I don't known which side is right but what I know is that until Diocletian/Constantine the Army had a tendency to increase in size and that it reach the peak under one of the two Emperors and that from that point on it begun to shrink.

But if the opinion asked is the why it increased during those day, my thought is the reason was civil war.

During the Crisis of the Third Century the Roman Army abandoned many of the weapons and gear that live on the imagination of people today. The gladius was abandoned in favour of the longer spatha, the shield changed from a heavy rectangle to a more light and manoeuvrable oval shape, the pilum was abandoned in favour of lighter darts and the thrusting spear was introduced to the legions and stopped being a weapon of the auxiliary.

The early weapons all required time to get used to.

The gladius is used to stab, and the main instinct of a person when he has a sword is to slash not to stab so it would take time to train the legions in that stile of fighting, while the Spatha is a open quarters slashing weapons.

The Scutum was heavy and demanded strong muscles to be able to hold it for long periods of time during battles, while the new oval shield was lighter and more designed to movement warfare and not the static fight that the romans favoured during the early days.

The pilum was a javelin, that if needed could be used as a spear, but most likely required heavy training to be used to use it effectively and the time it took to construct was, probably, greater than its replacement the Angon and the Plumbatae. Also the spear and the dart are easier weapons to use, don't require much training to get used to it and were lighter and more easier to transport.

All of this indicates that the Roman Army had changed from being a heavily drilled army into a more numbers based forced.

Lower times of training allow more soldiers to be battle-ready compared to those the Early Empire could train in the same amount of time, also the lower number of men per legion wouldn't force the recruits to train the same large formations the Legion of the Early Empire use.

This would allow Emperors, or usurpers, to raise more soldiers in a much smaller window of time and given that the men on the loosing side were usually added to the winning army the size of the field army would keep growing.

Ex: A General declares himself, or his declared by his men, Emperor. His first move is to gain access to gold/silver to pay his troops and to conscript more men into his army so that he can face the Emperor. In this scenario it doesn't matters if the Emperor or the usurper wins for the loosing army will be integrated into the winning side, because extra soldiers were always welcomed by the Emperors and because if they disbanded the men it could lead to instability as they would most likely turn to banditry. Also disbanding the men would give a dangerous sign to his own men, after all if he did that to them what would stop the Emperor to do that to his own men, the logical end, to the legions, would be that the Emperor must be replaced for a more understandable candidate.

3- Before answering this I will public admit my bias against Constantine, not Diocletian tho. Those that read this will know that this is a biased opinion and must take it for his value, and that is to the reader to decide.

Diocletian did what he had to do.

Instead of being the Army the one to serve the Empire, thanks to him, it became the Empire that had to serve the army.

He divided his forces to better protect the Empire, divided the civil and militar command, appointed regional commanders to take care of problem at the lowest level, passed conscription laws that helped the army to recover its lost manpower in the last century, improved militar infrastructures and improved the supply system.

His plans and reforms gave the upper hand back to the Roman armies and, as history showed, his reforms helped the Empire turn his back on his darkest hour.

Basically he was the Emperor the Empire, and the Army needed.

But his reforms also had problems.

His Tetrarchy could only work while a Strong Emperor that could force the other three existed, and while this could be achieved, the other problem was that there was nothing that would stop one of the Emperors to turn on the others.

Now lets get start on Constantine.

He continued Diocletian's work, good move there, abolished the Pretorians, his greatest idea in my opinion, and then he fucked it up by concentrating the armies in the inland cities leaving the borders under the care of the outnumbered Limitanei.

While I understand the reasons why he increased the size of his comitatus, it was a time of instability and it was dangerous to leave a general with too much soldiers, but transferring border units to integrate them in the mobile army, that was usually stationed deep in the Empire, weakened the borders too much and ruined Diocletian's plans that had been based on strengthening those borders.

P.S. Yes I agree with Zosimus accounts on Constantine and I also agree on his opinion that he weakened the Empire by strengthening his own comitatus at the expense of the border armies, but like i stated in the beginning this can be considered a bias opinion, I'm aware of it, so you choose the value of it.

4- Needed and, in my opinion, the best decision Constantine ever did. They were over payed, corrupt, had no real use now that Rome had stopped being the true center of Roman Power and they were too dangerous to be left alone because of their history of making their own Emperors.

5- The Comitateses were born out of circumstances.

The Pretorians were too disloyal and the Emperor needed to have an army at his disposal, to fight the usurpers.

They were born out of the Civil wars as the Emperors became more and more enrolled with the army. The days were an Emperor could sit in Rome while his general fought for him were done and now the Emperor was first and foremost a General that needed to make sure that his men were loyal and for that he needed to have a force at his disposal that could make sure they would be kept loyal.

While they were, officially, a mobile army to face off invasions, most of the time they were stationed too inland to act with enough speed. In reality they were basically a giant force of bodyguards.

Limitanei, the unwanted brother of the Comitateses.

As the field armies became more permanent formations and grew in size, less and less men begun to be stationed in the borders. They had to man the forts, scout the frontiers, fight off small scale invasion and do what they could to delay the large invaders until the field armies could advance.

While they represented the largest share of the Army, they were still to few for such a large border. The fact that they were stationed in the borders and had a lower pay, most likely affected their discipline and moral. I also believe that their lower pay was what, probably, made their transformation from professionals to semi-professional to militia soldiers.

They were effective at first but as the borders begun to be more and more harassed the leaks on the border begun to show.

In a book I own, but that I don't have at hand right now, about the Roman Army, the authors defend that the Battle of Adrianople signified the destruction of the Eastern Comitateses and that the Emperors begun to transfer the border forces to the Comitatus. If this is true then it explains the why the Limitanei begun to lower in efficiency.

In the same book the failing of efficiency in the West can be traced to Frigidus. The mobile field army was crushed and the border forces were striped from the frontiers to create new field forces that weakened the frontiers.

6- Won't touch this. I have bias on the religious part, I believe the purges the Pagan/Christian Emperors did only stripped them of valuable manpower.

7- Barbarisation is probably the wrong term.

The Romans had a successful history with using foreign auxiliary and that never weakened their efficiency.

The great problem was the use of large forces of mercenaries.

I once went, with my father, to a lecture where former Portuguese and Spanish officers, mainly from the Ifny war and the Colonial War, would speak of the current world situation. One of the Spanish, a former Brigadier I think, established a parallel between between the usage of contractors to serve in the conflicts and the Roman dependency on foreign mercenaries. He said that when a state favors the usage of private forces for short term gains, will, on the middle-long term, suffer.

Rome proved that.

While the usage of mercenary auxiliary helped Rome short term, in the long term the army begun to be too dependent on them. As the Roman soldiers begun to die more because civil war than foreign war, Emperors begun to relay on employing mercenaries that had no loyalty to him but to money (not that that makes any difference because the soldiers born on the empire were also only loyal to money), because they were cheaper, the state didn't had to invest on their training, and where easily available. The usage of the mercs didn't weakened the efficiency of the army in any way, but created a dependency. And as the Roman born citizens begun to be more and more reluctant to join the army, more mercs had to be recruited, more money had to raised to pay them and when that money didn't appeared land had to be traded away. Less land less taxes, less ability to pay more land as to be given away.

The Empire, like a body, begun to sacrifice its arms and legs to survive, until only the vital parts remained intact. And when there was nothing more to be traded away, they ended up with no army, almost no lands, and with a great number of foreign mercenaries waiting to be payed.

8- The army was efficient and worked well in times of stability.

The greatest issue, that would be hard to fix, was that even in the time of greatest stability there was nothing to stop one General to declare himself Emperor if he had support of a part of the army. Maybe a keeping hostages from the General's family in the Capital could work, but for some not even that would stop them.

But the greatest problem wasn't on the army, it was on the imperial bureaucracy and on civil war.

Corruption was too common, the Emperors had almost no knowledge of the state of the Empire, the Emperors were usually paranoyed and they could even drive the most loyal supporters into enemies, etc... the list is very long.

The armies spent more time fighting Roman forces than fighting foreign enemies, the manpower was destroyed fighting internal enemies, infrastructures were destroyed to deny usurpers their use, which would then be useless when the Emperors needed them to fight external enemies.

There were too many problems and it would be needed a new Five Good Emperors, in the term of five Emperors that didn't had to spend more time fighting insurrections and that would rule more than 5 months, to try to fix them.
 
6- Won't touch this. I have bias on the religious part, I believe the purges the Pagan/Christian Emperors did only stripped them of valuable manpower.

I think the issue of purges can be exaggerated TBH. Late Emperors were generally quite pragmatic, even if their official policy was strongly pro-Christian. Even Theodosius, the Emperor who made Christianity the state religion and banned pagan sacrifices, continued to employ out-and-out pagans and heretics at his court. Loyalty and competence were always the main factors in an individual's advancement up the greasy pole.
 
1- It was needed. Five thousand men formations are great for field campaigns and great battles but when most of the fighting is done in small skirmishes the size of the legion would work against itself.

There were too many problems and it would be needed a new Five Good Emperors, in the term of five Emperors that didn't had to spend more time fighting insurrections and that would rule more than 5 months, to try to fix them.

Much thanks for the indepth analysis.
 
I think the issue of purges can be exaggerated TBH. Late Emperors were generally quite pragmatic, even if their official policy was strongly pro-Christian. Even Theodosius, the Emperor who made Christianity the state religion and banned pagan sacrifices, continued to employ out-and-out pagans and heretics at his court. Loyalty and competence were always the main factors in an individual's advancement up the greasy pole.

The problem of the purges isn't in the numbers but on the political side.

With the growing religious unrest, Christian vs Different Christian and Christian vs Pagan, when an Emperor showed favor to one side, it would, normally, encourage that side to take up arms against their opponents. Look at Julian the Apostate, an Emperor I admire, despite all he did, his patronage of Paganism created unrest as the Pagans now saw themselves back to Imperial Favor and tried to get vengeance. His calling back of heretical Bishops also only serve his goal of weakening Christianity and also had the bad effect of creating more unrest.

It was normal occurrence for different Christian sects to fight between themselves but when they had Imperial patronage those attacks were more frequent and in bigger numbers.

This created unrest and deprived the Empire of manpower, either in the form of recruits or regulars, that instead of being in the border was instead stationed inland to ensure peace.

Much thanks for the indepth analysis.

Glad I was of help.

Very quality response by @Karolus Rex

Thanks.
 
1- It was needed. Five thousand men formations are great for field campaigns and great battles but when most of the fighting is done in small skirmishes the size of the legion would work against itself.

With the 1000 men legion the Roman army gained flexibility and its ability to fight off small raiding parties improved.

2- This point is problematic. As someone will probably point out the two main lines of thought on the size is either the Larger Imperial Army or the Smaller Imperial Army.

I don't known which side is right but what I know is that until Diocletian/Constantine the Army had a tendency to increase in size and that it reach the peak under one of the two Emperors and that from that point on it begun to shrink.

But if the opinion asked is the why it increased during those day, my thought is the reason was civil war.

During the Crisis of the Third Century the Roman Army abandoned many of the weapons and gear that live on the imagination of people today. The gladius was abandoned in favour of the longer spatha, the shield changed from a heavy rectangle to a more light and manoeuvrable oval shape, the pilum was abandoned in favour of lighter darts and the thrusting spear was introduced to the legions and stopped being a weapon of the auxiliary.

The early weapons all required time to get used to.

The gladius is used to stab, and the main instinct of a person when he has a sword is to slash not to stab so it would take time to train the legions in that stile of fighting, while the Spatha is a open quarters slashing weapons.

The Scutum was heavy and demanded strong muscles to be able to hold it for long periods of time during battles, while the new oval shield was lighter and more designed to movement warfare and not the static fight that the romans favoured during the early days.

The pilum was a javelin, that if needed could be used as a spear, but most likely required heavy training to be used to use it effectively and the time it took to construct was, probably, greater than its replacement the Angon and the Plumbatae. Also the spear and the dart are easier weapons to use, don't require much training to get used to it and were lighter and more easier to transport.

All of this indicates that the Roman Army had changed from being a heavily drilled army into a more numbers based forced.

Lower times of training allow more soldiers to be battle-ready compared to those the Early Empire could train in the same amount of time, also the lower number of men per legion wouldn't force the recruits to train the same large formations the Legion of the Early Empire use.

This would allow Emperors, or usurpers, to raise more soldiers in a much smaller window of time and given that the men on the loosing side were usually added to the winning army the size of the field army would keep growing.

Ex: A General declares himself, or his declared by his men, Emperor. His first move is to gain access to gold/silver to pay his troops and to conscript more men into his army so that he can face the Emperor. In this scenario it doesn't matters if the Emperor or the usurper wins for the loosing army will be integrated into the winning side, because extra soldiers were always welcomed by the Emperors and because if they disbanded the men it could lead to instability as they would most likely turn to banditry. Also disbanding the men would give a dangerous sign to his own men, after all if he did that to them what would stop the Emperor to do that to his own men, the logical end, to the legions, would be that the Emperor must be replaced for a more understandable candidate.

3- Before answering this I will public admit my bias against Constantine, not Diocletian tho. Those that read this will know that this is a biased opinion and must take it for his value, and that is to the reader to decide.

Diocletian did what he had to do.

Instead of being the Army the one to serve the Empire, thanks to him, it became the Empire that had to serve the army.

He divided his forces to better protect the Empire, divided the civil and militar command, appointed regional commanders to take care of problem at the lowest level, passed conscription laws that helped the army to recover its lost manpower in the last century, improved militar infrastructures and improved the supply system.

His plans and reforms gave the upper hand back to the Roman armies and, as history showed, his reforms helped the Empire turn his back on his darkest hour.

Basically he was the Emperor the Empire, and the Army needed.

But his reforms also had problems.

His Tetrarchy could only work while a Strong Emperor that could force the other three existed, and while this could be achieved, the other problem was that there was nothing that would stop one of the Emperors to turn on the others.

Now lets get start on Constantine.

He continued Diocletian's work, good move there, abolished the Pretorians, his greatest idea in my opinion, and then he fucked it up by concentrating the armies in the inland cities leaving the borders under the care of the outnumbered Limitanei.

While I understand the reasons why he increased the size of his comitatus, it was a time of instability and it was dangerous to leave a general with too much soldiers, but transferring border units to integrate them in the mobile army, that was usually stationed deep in the Empire, weakened the borders too much and ruined Diocletian's plans that had been based on strengthening those borders.

P.S. Yes I agree with Zosimus accounts on Constantine and I also agree on his opinion that he weakened the Empire by strengthening his own comitatus at the expense of the border armies, but like i stated in the beginning this can be considered a bias opinion, I'm aware of it, so you choose the value of it.

4- Needed and, in my opinion, the best decision Constantine ever did. They were over payed, corrupt, had no real use now that Rome had stopped being the true center of Roman Power and they were too dangerous to be left alone because of their history of making their own Emperors.

5- The Comitateses were born out of circumstances.

The Pretorians were too disloyal and the Emperor needed to have an army at his disposal, to fight the usurpers.

They were born out of the Civil wars as the Emperors became more and more enrolled with the army. The days were an Emperor could sit in Rome while his general fought for him were done and now the Emperor was first and foremost a General that needed to make sure that his men were loyal and for that he needed to have a force at his disposal that could make sure they would be kept loyal.

While they were, officially, a mobile army to face off invasions, most of the time they were stationed too inland to act with enough speed. In reality they were basically a giant force of bodyguards.

Limitanei, the unwanted brother of the Comitateses.

As the field armies became more permanent formations and grew in size, less and less men begun to be stationed in the borders. They had to man the forts, scout the frontiers, fight off small scale invasion and do what they could to delay the large invaders until the field armies could advance.

While they represented the largest share of the Army, they were still to few for such a large border. The fact that they were stationed in the borders and had a lower pay, most likely affected their discipline and moral. I also believe that their lower pay was what, probably, made their transformation from professionals to semi-professional to militia soldiers.

They were effective at first but as the borders begun to be more and more harassed the leaks on the border begun to show.

In a book I own, but that I don't have at hand right now, about the Roman Army, the authors defend that the Battle of Adrianople signified the destruction of the Eastern Comitateses and that the Emperors begun to transfer the border forces to the Comitatus. If this is true then it explains the why the Limitanei begun to lower in efficiency.

In the same book the failing of efficiency in the West can be traced to Frigidus. The mobile field army was crushed and the border forces were striped from the frontiers to create new field forces that weakened the frontiers.

6- Won't touch this. I have bias on the religious part, I believe the purges the Pagan/Christian Emperors did only stripped them of valuable manpower.

7- Barbarisation is probably the wrong term.

The Romans had a successful history with using foreign auxiliary and that never weakened their efficiency.

The great problem was the use of large forces of mercenaries.

I once went, with my father, to a lecture where former Portuguese and Spanish officers, mainly from the Ifny war and the Colonial War, would speak of the current world situation. One of the Spanish, a former Brigadier I think, established a parallel between between the usage of contractors to serve in the conflicts and the Roman dependency on foreign mercenaries. He said that when a state favors the usage of private forces for short term gains, will, on the middle-long term, suffer.

Rome proved that.

While the usage of mercenary auxiliary helped Rome short term, in the long term the army begun to be too dependent on them. As the Roman soldiers begun to die more because civil war than foreign war, Emperors begun to relay on employing mercenaries that had no loyalty to him but to money (not that that makes any difference because the soldiers born on the empire were also only loyal to money), because they were cheaper, the state didn't had to invest on their training, and where easily available. The usage of the mercs didn't weakened the efficiency of the army in any way, but created a dependency. And as the Roman born citizens begun to be more and more reluctant to join the army, more mercs had to be recruited, more money had to raised to pay them and when that money didn't appeared land had to be traded away. Less land less taxes, less ability to pay more land as to be given away.

The Empire, like a body, begun to sacrifice its arms and legs to survive, until only the vital parts remained intact. And when there was nothing more to be traded away, they ended up with no army, almost no lands, and with a great number of foreign mercenaries waiting to be payed.

8- The army was efficient and worked well in times of stability.

The greatest issue, that would be hard to fix, was that even in the time of greatest stability there was nothing to stop one General to declare himself Emperor if he had support of a part of the army. Maybe a keeping hostages from the General's family in the Capital could work, but for some not even that would stop them.

But the greatest problem wasn't on the army, it was on the imperial bureaucracy and on civil war.

Corruption was too common, the Emperors had almost no knowledge of the state of the Empire, the Emperors were usually paranoyed and they could even drive the most loyal supporters into enemies, etc... the list is very long.

The armies spent more time fighting Roman forces than fighting foreign enemies, the manpower was destroyed fighting internal enemies, infrastructures were destroyed to deny usurpers their use, which would then be useless when the Emperors needed them to fight external enemies.

There were too many problems and it would be needed a new Five Good Emperors, in the term of five Emperors that didn't had to spend more time fighting insurrections and that would rule more than 5 months, to try to fix them.
A new five emperors for the 4th century sounds intresting for a timeline
 

Zioneer

Banned
All I can say is that I'm really digging the information @Karolus Rex gave. Very helpful for my own potential timelines (or even fantasy stories based loosely on this kind of setting).

One thing that seems clear is that the army was at least strong enough to ensure that the Empire wasn't broken up piecemeal. It could ward off some threats, and wasn't completely useless.
 
Its failures were not military in nature, but embeded in the colapse of political and administrative structures of the empire. I don't think the soldiers or commanders were inferior to their peers 200 years before, its just that the manpower consumed itself in civil wars and the organization was changed in a way that had as a primary purpose to prevent the army been used in usurpation attempts, rather than defending the borders.
 
@Karolus Rex From what I've read,I was under the impression that the weapons the late Roman army used actually requires a much longer training than those used by the Principate and before.According to re-enactors I've been in contact with,they claimed that the wonderful thing about the gladius and a large shield is that when used in conjunction with a lot of similarly armed individuals,a soldier is able to fight with far less years of training then one who would have to fight with a much longer sword or ones who uses spears.And I would have to agree with this given that the Germanic tribes would definitely have far more years of training than Roman recruits who only received training in their adulthood,unless said recruit was from a military family.

As for defense in depth,I was under the impression that overall,it worked,not that it doesn't have any problems of it's own.
 
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@darthfanta The re-enactors were using the late weapons in mock battle scenarios correct?

If yes that explains it.

The usage of the oval shield with the Spatha is terrible in battle scenarios because the Spatha requires space to use it and there is always the danger to hit the man next to you with the sword, that was the main reason early roman soldiers had their swords on the right, so that they wouldn't hit their own while taking the weapon from the scabbard.

In close quarters the gladius is easier to use.

But the main roman weapon for that type of fight was the spear, that would be placed on the space between the shields. For that the oval was preferred because the older shield didn't left space when they formed a shield wall and would force spear users to keep their weapons high and that would tier them more quickly.

Basically the late weapons were not design for great open battles, where the infantry would had a more defensive role that than in the past given that they were the anvil and not the hammer. They were designed for small scale skirmishes where space wasn't a problem and where the extra reach of the Spatha would be beneficial while the gladius wouldn't be able to be used to its best in those circumstances. This proves that the romans now favored ambushing there enemies, less casualties more kills. Large battles were still fought but now the infantry would be the holding force and the extra reach of the spear would be beneficial to make sure less men were killed, and also probably because the spear can rip chainmail while the sword is, by the tests I seen but those where about 8-9th century weapons so they can not work in this scenario, basically useless against chainmail.

This can best be seen in the 7-10th centuries, where warriors would usually carry two swords, a long slashing sword for open fight and a short stabbing sword for the close quarters fighting of the shieldwall.

P.S. I am on my phone so if anything doesn't makes sense point it out so that I can fix it.

Edit: didn't noticed the defense in deep part.

That is a theory, one that I think is wrong, but I was wrong before and who knows I might be wrong now.

The empire was too big and had no infrastructures to implement empire wide strategies and the roman mindset, even spat its end, was on of aggression.

Even when they begun to prefer ambush tactics they would still take the initiative when they could.

Also the defense in deep theory ignores the several incursions the romans did across the Rhine and that they had more defensive structures on the east side of the Rhine than on the west. This indicates that the romans on the Rhine border favored a type of foward defense, in their minds it was better to fight on enemy land than on their lands.

But in the Mesopotamian, and Armenian border deep defense was used but they still committed to large scale punitive expeditions to create buffers between their border and the Sassanid land.
 
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@darthfanta The re-enactors were using the late weapons in mock battle scenarios correct?

If yes that explains it.

The usage of the oval shield with the Spatha is terrible in battle scenarios because the Spatha requires space to use it and there is always the danger to hit the man next to you with the sword, that was the main reason early roman soldiers had their swords on the right, so that they wouldn't hit their own while taking the weapon from the scabbard.

In close quarters the gladius is easier to use.

But the main roman weapon for that type of fight was the spear, that would be placed on the space between the shields. For that the oval was preferred because the older shield didn't left space when they formed a shield wall and would force spear users to keep their weapons high and that would tier them more quickly.

Basically the late weapons were not design for great open battles, where the infantry would had a more defensive role that than in the past given that they were the anvil and not the hammer. They were designed for small scale skirmishes where space wasn't a problem and where the extra reach of the Spatha would be beneficial while the gladius wouldn't be able to be used to its best in those circumstances. This proves that the romans now favored ambushing there enemies, less casualties more kills. Large battles were still fought but now the infantry would be the holding force and the extra reach of the spear would be beneficial to make sure less men were killed, and also probably because the spear can rip chainmail while the sword is, by the tests I seen but those where about 8-9th century weapons so they can not work in this scenario, basically useless against chainmail.

This can best be seen in the 7-10th centuries, where warriors would usually carry two swords, a long slashing sword for open fight and a short stabbing sword for the close quarters fighting of the shieldwall.
The re-enactors were using early weapons.Nonetheless,they point I'm trying to make is that it actually requires far less training to use the gladius and shield than using spathas,spears and the shield.Whereas,you seemed to have implied earlier that they dropped the gladius and the scutum because the army transitioned from a heavily drilled force to a more numbered force.My opinion was the opposite,since they transitioned to using weapons that required for more training to be effective.I agree that the need to fight more skirmishes is definitely the reason why the gladius and the scutum were dropped.
 
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