no Mormons

NomadicSky

Banned
Joseph Smith doesn't write the book of Mormon or he is unable to convince people to follow him. Therefore the Mormon faith never comes into existance.

What would the long term effect be?
 

NomadicSky

Banned
Well I know there wouldn't be a Salt Lake City. The growth of Utah would be different Utah might not exist at all.
 
I'd have to agree with the nonexistence of Utah; probably the territory that is now Utah would be divided between Nevada and Colorado. It's possible the completion of the transcontinental railroad might have been slowed a bit (the last spike was driven at Promontory, Utah Territory, in 1869). And with no Salt Lake City, development of trolley coach technology might have been slowed somewhat (that city had an early installation in 1928, I believe; technological developments made in SLC were applied in later North American installations).
 
Lots of people from my area wouldnt haev gone to Utah, so maybe Preston would have a bigger population. We certainly wouldn't have a large Mormon church around here, thats for sure.
 

Keenir

Banned
Joseph Smith doesn't write the book of Mormon or he is unable to convince people to follow him. Therefore the Mormon faith never comes into existance.

What would the long term effect be?

Not sure, exactly....but given that Smith's hometown and district was a hotbed of new religious ideas flickering in and out of existance, we might see something else coming from there - or not.
 

Darkest

Banned
You'd change the entire history of the American West, directly or through butterflies. The last you'd get the same as OTL is the actions there during the Mexican American War.

- Sam Brannan never arrives with the Brooklyn at Yerba Buena (San Fran), carrying Mormon settlers to California which tripled the population of the settlement. They brought the first flour mill, the first newspaper, the first school. Without the Brooklyn, Yerba Buena remains a small village.
- Without Mormon workers at Sutter's Mill, all Marshall can use are Native Americans. These guys are probably not going to go sell their bits of gold at Yerba Buena, especially not when Yerba Buena doesn't even have stores to buy from (without the Mormons). Sutter gets to keep his gold secret, what will he do with it?
- If the gold secret does get out, it will do so slower. Not just because the diffusion of gold from Sutter's Mill to Yerba Buena is slower, but without the direction of Sam Brannan and his newspaper, the news of it won't get out! It will work almost entirely by the direction of Sutter, though I would think that after a while SOMEONE has to find out.
- Without the Gold Rush of 1849 and the rapid growth of population in California, the Compromise of 1850 isn't going to happen or have as much impact. Texas is a slave state unbalanced by another. Antebellum American history is going to be skewed significantly.

Enough about California. Consider the effects of the Mormon colonization of the west. They built roads and trails to the west, bridges, roadside settlements to help facilitate travelers. They brought great business to the west, buying up goods in forts and the isolated settlements already there, encouraging more investment to the area. They irrigated the Great Basin, created a huge number of settlements throughout the West, of which many became modern cities, and negotiated fair relations with the Indians.

Without this charitable, zealous drive to tame the West, its colonization is going to be delayed and slowed. American colonization to Oregon might be delayed enough so that Britain could get their claim. Many more will board ships to California once that gets started (later), taking the long voyage around Cape Horn. That might be a good thing, but it will, once again, delay the settlement of the West.

This will most likely change American history significantly, with different presidental elections, issues, choices, and the Civil War occuring differently, no matter how you take it. And you know what butterflies in the Civil War could do: Southern independence, or worse, continued concession to ideas of slavery.

And then you've got to consider the lack of Mormon charitable organizations. Sure, because we don't have such a huge membership, we aren't able to do as much. But we don't pay anyone for their religious duties, and we gather ten percent from the profits of every member, and thats a lot of money that is gathered and spent on charity. No more Mormon missionaries means more of a negative light of Americans in foreign countries, as missionaries out of the United States (and Canada and the UK) are really just a religious version of the Peace Corps.

Oh yeah, and no Battlestar Galactica. :)
 
No more Mormon missionaries means more of a negative light of Americans in foreign countries, as missionaries out of the United States (and Canada and the UK) are really just a religious version of the Peace Corps.
That is not entirely correct (check up what US missionaries are doing to South American Natives, and you'll see what I mean).
 
You also change the entire settlement of Illinois. Differnt towns, differnt Banks, Different People, No Lincoln????
 
I'd have to agree with the nonexistence of Utah; probably the territory that is now Utah would be divided between Nevada and Colorado.

As I recall, Nevada was sliced out of the Utah territory. If Utah hadn't been settled by Mormons, it would still have been settled. There is silver and copper in the mountains east and west of the Salt Lake Valley, after all.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Another thing about California is the use of Mormon troops to provide order during the chaos of the Gold Rush - without them it would have been a lot trickier to control

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Darkest

Banned
That is not entirely correct (check up what US missionaries are doing to South American Natives, and you'll see what I mean).

I'm not talking about US missionaries, but Mormon ones. Entirely different.
 
as missionaries out of the United States (and Canada and the UK) are really just a religious version of the Peace Corps.
This bit gave me the impression that you were speaking about missionaries in general. If you meant the mormons specifically, I am sorry.
 
I don't think San Fran would stay a small city forever. The US simply need a Pacific harbor, and the place is well suited for it.

Could Utah become an Indian territory ITTL?
 
As noted, giant butterflies abound.

A larger question: Is America predisposed to at least one religion like Mormonism popping up out of the awakenings? Or is Mormonism truly one of those strange contingent phenomenon of history.

After all, religions are a mix of the extraordinarily contingent and the more "deeply rooted."
 
No more Mormon missionaries means more of a negative light of Americans in foreign countries, as missionaries out of the United States (and Canada and the UK) are really just a religious version of the Peace Corps.

I do not believe Mormon missionaries to have a major impact on the image of the US; current policies are IMHO much more important in (re)shaping said image.

Over here in Germany, religious missionaries tend to be considered as a nuisance. The general prejudice about Mormon missionaries is that they are clean and polite, but should be avoided.

I must admit that the zeal of some of said Missionaries did nothing to increase my pro-American feelings, sorry.

-------------------------------

Removing the Mormons from our timeline would hinder historical research, as they spend large resources on genealogy and make their databases public.
 

Darkest

Banned
I'm sorry. I should have said 'third world' or 'developing' foreign countries. No, I will say that they do not have an affect on First World countries, particularily the West, as they are not involved in any charitable public works. But assignment to developing countries usually includes assistance in the construction of infrastructure and teaching language.
 
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