Nazi Survival TL

Well, this is an experimental idea I've drafted just today. Need some comments on whether this is good or not.:)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

It all began at Dunkirk on May 25, 1940. Instead of halting his forces, Hitler ordered them to smash through the pocket of Allied troops. Cut off and isolated by the lightning assault, four hundred thousand British and French troops were killed or captured by May 27. It was a terrific blow dealt to the Allies, in particular the British.

The destruction of the British Expeditionary Force did not bode well at home. Calls were made in both public and parliament for the removal of Winston Churchill from the cabinet. On June 1, Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax took over the mantle of Prime Minister and negotiated with the Germans on an armistice. Hitler was more than happy to oblige, but only on the conditions that harsh terms were imposed on the little island. So the negotiations dragged on until late September 1940.

It was agreed upon that Germany could make use of Britain’s naval facilities at her leisure and allowed to base troops in Gibraltar, Egypt and Sudan. The Italians would not interfere in any of these territories. In return, captured members of BEF were to be returned two weeks before Christmas. It was also agreed that the two ‘Aryan’ nations would not fight each other, again. “We are Aryan nations, after all,” said Hitler as he shook hands with Lord Halifax while standing in front of the Brandenburg Gate.

Thus, neither did the Battle of Britain nor the North African campaign occur, giving Hitler and Mussolini the chance to concentrate on the Balkans and ultimately, the Soviet Union. On March 12, 1941, a joint-force of German, Italian and Bulgarian troops invaded Greece and Yugoslavia. The Italians, fighting in Greece since late 1940, were more than thankful for the German intervention. The Balkan regions fell on 1 April, 1941.

As the world watched Axis boots stamping through Athens and Belgrade, German forces along the Polish-Russo border began massing. On the sunny morning of 3 May, 1941, three German Army Groups plunged into the Soviet Union. Two days later, armed uprisings broke out in Lithuania and Estonia, as anti-Soviet partisan forces welcomed the German invaders. By late-July 1941, Army Group North, South and Centre, spearheaded by Guderian and Rommel’s panzers began closing in on Moscow. The Soviet government, having evacuated the Russian capital city to the eastern city of Kubliyshev, knew that one way or another, Moscow was going to fall. Stalin insisted on staying in the city, shooting anyone who showed defeatist attitudes. He died as German panzers smashed through the Kremlin gates on July 30, gunned down while trying to escape from his Little Corner.

With Stalin’s death, NKVD chief Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria took over the position of General Secretary of the Soviet Union. While no less ruthless than the Man of Steel, Beria was a little more reasonable. Thus with his rule, commanders of the Red Army were given a free-hand in preparing the defenses of the Motherland. Even by late September 1941, Leningrad and Odessa were still holding out. Casualties were high for the Russians, but the same went for the Germans; they had to deal with near-constant partisan activities in the areas they’ve conquered. Apparently, Lebensraum wasn’t working out as planned; heavy resistance forced the Germans to hunker down for the winter months, consolidating whatever territories they have captured.

When soviet spy Richard Sorge reported on October 26 that the Japanese were intending to strike south instead of north, Beria immediately ordered the withdrawal of Soviet Far Eastern units to the Front in the west. The Germans were adequately prepared for winter, but even they could not imagine the sheer size of the Russian counterattack on December 1, 1941. It would be two months and a half before they could encircle Army Group Centre in Moscow and smash it to smithereens, however.

In the Pacific, the Japanese launched a devastating sneak attack on Pearl Harbor just like in Our History. Events that proceeded after Pearl Harbor happened differently than the original history. Hong Kong did not fall until January 12, 1942. Events on the Malayan Peninsula went radically different. Instead of being commanded by Lieutenant-General Percival, Commonwealth forces stationed there were under General Bernard Law Montgomery. The RAF sent at least four squadrons of Spitfires to replace the old Buffaloes and out-matched Hurricanes in late November, when the signs strongly pointed that a direct confrontation with the Japanese was inevitable. It might have been a lucky guess, but the guns of Fort Siloso were pointed northwest towards the Peninsula, not out to the open sea. And they used high explosive shells, not armor-piercing ones.

Germany did not declare war on the United States when it did so the day after Pearl Harbor occurred. Instead, Hitler condemned the hasty actions carried out by the ‘yellow men of the Far East’ and kicked them out of the Axis. While he did not declare war on the Japanese, Hitler did order the Kriegsmarine’s U-Boats to aid the British and Americans in the Far East.

By June 1942, the southern half of Malaya, along with Singapore, was still holding out against the Japanese. The Dutch East Indies was still in Allied hands, so was New Guinea and South Pacific islands. American/Filipino resistance in the Philippines was still going strong, while in Burma, Commonwealth forces held out just as long. Japanese plans of ‘Co-Prosperity Asia’ were very much behind schedule, and were made worse when they lost five of their carriers during the Battle of Midway (happened on June 10).

The Pacific War ended on 3 January 1943, with Japan suing for peace ever since she realized that she was going against the whole world. The Americans wanted nothing less than unconditional surrender, which the Japanese did not accept. Lord Halifax came to the rescue again when he brokered an armistice between the two nations. Japan was allowed to keep its possessions in Manchuria and China, but had to withdraw from Indochina and the territories they'd conquered after December 7, 1941 (occupation of Indochina handed over to a joint-force of British, Commonwealth, American and German soldiers)

In Russia, it was increasingly becoming a stalemated war. Soviet forces managed a push that re-captured Kharkov in August 1942, only to lose it during November and to retake it back again in February 1943. By this time, Germany had practiced an unconditional war in the Soviet Union, relying on mustard and Sarin gases whenever they’re faced with heavy resistance. The Soviets did the same thing, except theirs were biological weapons that infected much of German-held Russia. This stalemate would continue on until July 28, 1945, when Germany detonated its first two atomic weapons over Kubliyshev and Stalingrad.

It shocked the world, but things were overshadowed when America tested its first atomic bomb on July 30, 1945 in Alamogordo, New Mexico. Slowly, realization crept in that there would soon be only two superpowers facing against each other. This was further cemented the following year when a squadron of American B-36 long-range bombers flying out of the Philippines detonated nine atomic warheads on targets in the Japanese Home Island of Honshu. Following that, President Dewey announced the ultimatum for the government of Japan; unconditional surrender, or utter destruction. In Berlin, the Fuhrer trembled when he heard that. The following week, German bombers detonated another two atomic bombs over targets in Siberia. The message was clear: Don’t mess with Nazi Germany.
 
Last edited:
Thoughts:

1. The halt order was routine and not Hitler's idea. Arguably the Panzers had no petrol anyway (it it still a possible POD though)

2. There would be no Balkan campaign, the Yugoslavs would not dream of resisting a treaty with Hitler.

3. Richard Sorge's activity are much exaggerated

4. Other than that not implausible.
 

Glen

Moderator
Well, this is an experimental idea I've drafted just today. Need some comments on whether this is good or not.:)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

It all began at Dunkirk on May 25, 1940. Instead of halting his forces, Hitler ordered them to smash through the pocket of Allied troops. Cut off and isolated by the lightning assault, four hundred thousand British and French troops were killed or captured by May 27. It was a terrific blow dealt to the Allies, in particular the British.

More likely the Generals in the offensive just continue to ignore Hitler and push forward. However, you need to provide for a way to resupply the Germans for the final push, as I believe they were overstretching their immediate resupply abilities.

Alternatively, just have a bad storm hit the Channel, interfering with the 'Miracle at Dunkirk'.


The destruction of the British Expeditionary Force did not bode well at home. Calls were made in both public and parliament for the removal of Winston Churchill from the cabinet.


Personally, I would think this would just stiffen resolve under the Churchill government. But okay, its plausible.

On June 1, Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax took over the mantle of Prime Minister and negotiated with the Germans on an armistice. Hitler was more than happy to oblige,

This part is all too likely.

but only on the conditions that harsh terms were imposed on the little island. So the negotiations dragged on until late September 1940.

It was agreed upon that Germany could make use of Britain’s naval facilities at her leisure and allowed to base troops in Gibraltar, Egypt and Sudan.


Pure ASB IMO. First, Hitler was a softie on the British, and wouldn't push for harsh terms. Second, the Germans need the UK out of the picture soonest, and isn't going to be in a position this early in the fight to push for harsh terms of any sort. They have won in Europe, but beyond that their ability to project force is tenuous. Third, no British government is allowing German troops into Gibralter or Egypt, period. This would break the bank on the deal.

The Italians would not interfere in any of these territories. In return, captured members of BEF were to be returned two weeks before Christmas. It was also agreed that the two ‘Aryan’ nations would not fight each other, again. “We are Aryan nations, after all,” said Hitler as he shook hands with Lord Halifax while standing in front of the Brandenburg Gate.

Thus, neither did the Battle of Britain nor the North African campaign occur, giving Hitler and Mussolini the chance to concentrate on the Balkans and ultimately, the Soviet Union.


This part's fine.

On March 12, 1941, a joint-force of German, Italian and Bulgarian troops invaded Greece and Yugoslavia. The Italians, fighting in Greece since late 1940, were more than thankful for the German intervention. The Balkan regions fell on 1 April, 1941.

As the world watched Axis boots stamping through Athens and Belgrade,


Extending the invasion into Greece risks the British getting back into the war, IMO. Maybe if it remains just the Italians, and Hitler says this is Mussolini's fight, staying out of it. Since the Greeks will likely hold off the Italians, this works.

German forces along the Polish-Russo border began massing. On the sunny morning of 3 May, 1941, three German Army Groups plunged into the Soviet Union. Two days later, armed uprisings broke out in Lithuania and Estonia, as anti-Soviet partisan forces welcomed the German invaders. By late-July 1941, Army Group North, South and Centre, spearheaded by Guderian and Rommel’s panzers began closing in on Moscow. The Soviet government, having evacuated the Russian capital city to the eastern city of Kubliyshev, knew that one way or another, Moscow was going to fall. Stalin insisted on staying in the city, shooting anyone who showed defeatist attitudes. He died as German panzers smashed through the Kremlin gates on July 30, gunned down while trying to escape from his Little Corner.

With Stalin’s death, NKVD chief Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria took over the position of General Secretary of the Soviet Union. While no less ruthless than the Man of Steel, Beria was a little more reasonable. Thus with his rule, commanders of the Red Army were given a free-hand in preparing the defenses of the Motherland. Even by late September 1941, Leningrad and Odessa were still holding out. Casualties were high for the Russians, but the same went for the Germans; they had to deal with near-constant partisan activities in the areas they’ve conquered. Apparently, Lebensraum wasn’t working out as planned; heavy resistance forced the Germans to hunker down for the winter months, consolidating whatever territories they have captured.

When soviet spy Richard Sorge reported on October 26 that the Japanese were intending to strike south instead of north, Beria immediately ordered the withdrawal of Soviet Far Eastern units to the Front in the west. The Germans were adequately prepared for winter, but even they could not imagine the sheer size of the Russian counterattack on December 1, 1941. It would be two months and a half before they could encircle Army Group Centre in Moscow and smash it to smithereens, however.

This all seems possible at first perusal.

In the Pacific, the Japanese launched a devastating sneak attack on Pearl Harbor just like in Our History. Events that proceeded after Pearl Harbor happened differently than the original history. Hong Kong did not fall until January 12, 1942. Events on the Malayan Peninsula went radically different. Instead of being commanded by Lieutenant-General Percival, Commonwealth forces stationed there were under General Bernard Law Montgomery. The RAF sent at least four squadrons of Spitfires to replace the old Buffaloes and out-matched Hurricanes in late November, when the signs strongly pointed that a direct confrontation with the Japanese was inevitable. It might have been a lucky guess, but the guns of Fort Siloso were pointed northwest towards the Peninsula, not out to the open sea. And they used high explosive shells, not armor-piercing ones.

Germany did not declare war on the United States when it did so the day after Pearl Harbor occurred. Instead, Hitler condemned the hasty actions carried out by the ‘yellow men of the Far East’ and kicked them out of the Axis.


Okay, its possible.

While he did not declare war on the Japanese, Hitler did order the Kriegsmarine’s U-Boats to aid the British and Americans in the Far East.

Too far. They just stay neutral is the most we can expect from Hitler on this.

By June 1942, the southern half of Malaya, along with Singapore, was still holding out against the Japanese. The Dutch East Indies was still in Allied hands, so was New Guinea and South Pacific islands. American/Filipino resistance in the Philippines was still going strong, while in Burma, Commonwealth forces held out just as long. Japanese plans of ‘Co-Prosperity Asia’ were very much behind schedule, and were made worse when they lost five of their carriers during the Battle of Midway (happened on June 10).

The Pacific War ended on 3 January 1943, with Japan suing for peace ever since she realized that she was going against the whole world. The Americans wanted nothing less than unconditional surrender, which the Japanese did not accept. Lord Halifax came to the rescue again when he brokered an armistice between the two nations. Japan was allowed to keep its possessions in Manchuria and China, but had to withdraw for Indochina (occupation handed over to a joint-force of British, Commonwealth, American and German soldiers)

I would imagine they'd want the Japanese out of a bit more than that, but a negotiated peace ITTL is possible. However, the US is likely to be seeing the UK as sell-outs at this point.

In Russia, it was increasingly becoming a stalemated war. Soviet forces managed a push that re-captured Kharkov in August 1942, only to lose it during November and to retake it back again in February 1943. By this time, Germany had practiced an unconditional war in the Soviet Union, relying on mustard and Sarin gases whenever they’re faced with heavy resistance. The Soviets did the same thing, except theirs were biological weapons that infected much of German-held Russia. This stalemate would continue on until July 28, 1945, when Germany detonated its first two atomic weapons over Kubliyshev and Stalingrad.

Whoa! WTF? You have no build up as to why ITTL the Germans would succeed in building any abomb, especially one in 1945. Are you doing multiple PODs ITTL? Because I don't see how British leaving the war leads to this result.

It shocked the world, but things were overshadowed when America tested its first atomic bomb on July 30, 1945 in Alamogordo, New Mexico. Slowly, realization crept in that there would soon be only two superpowers facing against each other. This was further cemented the following year when a squadron of American B-36 long-range bombers flying out of the Philippines detonated nine atomic warheads on targets in the Japanese island of Honshu. Following that, President Dewey announced the ultimatum for the government of Japan; unconditional surrender, or utter destruction. In Berlin, the Fuhrer trembled when he heard that. The following week, German bombers detonated another two atomic bombs over targets in Siberia. The message was clear: Don’t mess with Nazi Germany.

Too many bombs. The US launching against the Japanese is of course realistic, though I question why the US hasn't launched an invasion of the Home Islands already if this is the scenario so far. If anything, the US is in a much stronger position to take on Japan without having to also fight Hitler.

If you're going for a single POD timeline, you've got too many changes that don't compute. If multiple PODs, fine, but you need to show the foundation for them a bit better so they don't take us off-guard and scratching our heads.

But overall good start! I'm trying to give constructive criticism. Keep going with it!
 

Glen

Moderator
Thoughts:

1. The halt order was routine and not Hitler's idea. Arguably the Panzers had no petrol anyway

Agreed.

(it it still a possible POD though)

Agreed.

2. There would be no Balkan campaign, the Yugoslavs would not dream of resisting a treaty with Hitler.

There likely would be, too many members of the Axis wanted pieces of Yugoslavia. Don't know that they would leave them the option.

3. Richard Sorge's activity are much exaggerated

4. Other than that not implausible.

Agreed.
 
Glen said:
If you're going for a single POD timeline, you've got too many changes that don't compute. If multiple PODs, fine, but you need to show the foundation for them a bit better so they don't take us off-guard and scratching our heads.

I like to do alot of butterflies, you know. Not the ASB kinds, but the alternate ones.:p

Did this draft timeline because I'm planning to use them for some future story currently in-planning. Hence the reason why certain parts of it are unrealistic. Although making them more plausible is a big plus.
 
Last edited:
There likely would be, too many members of the Axis wanted pieces of Yugoslavia. Don't know that they would leave them the option.


Well, Yugoslavia was a de-facto part of the Axis in early 1941.

They signed a treaty with Germany at 25th of March 1941, which had a guarantee of Yugoslavia's territory, allowing german war materiels to be sent through Yugoslavian railroad, the government clamping down on anti-german insurgents and a promise of territorial expansion into Greece.

2 days later a Serbian group made a revolt and overthrow the yugoslav government.

I have severe doubt they would dare this in a timeline where Germany is not at war with any nation.
 
I have severe doubt they would dare this in a timeline where Germany is not at war with any nation.

Thanks for the tip, but I'll give the German-Italians the reason of 'preventing an insurgent communist hostile take-over of an Axis member' for invading Yugoslavia.:)
 

Glen

Moderator
I like to do alot of butterflies, you know. Not the ASB kinds, but the alternate ones.:p

Did this draft timeline because I'm planning to use them for some future story currently in-planning. Hence the reason why certain parts of it are unrealistic. Although making them more plausible is a big plus.

Tell us what PODs are absolutely necessary for your story, and then maybe we can craft a tight and plausible timeline explaining how they come about.
 
Top