Nationalism without Monolingualism

TL;DR - Could "normal" nationalism in a "modern" world be multilingual?

OTL bias makes certain countries look a bit weird.

Iran, for example. When I was in my early years getting into history, I came across a linguistic map of the place, and became awfully confused. The place is extraordinarily diverse to a modern American eye. It didn't make sense. Of course the same was true of southern China, Andean Peru, and peripheral India, but "naturally" both had overwhelming majority or official languages to hold things together (oversimplifying here, obviously). Granted most of Africa, Afghanistan, and Southeast Asia had "too many" languages, but those countries were obviously failing because of these weaknesses (early teens! forgive me!). But I couldn't quite rationalize my heuristics with the reality of modern Iran.

A lot of those heuristics are the default ones for the modern world. The whole nationalism-was-inevitable discussion we rehash six or eight times a year. But my questions are more specific:

What would nationalism look like if the early practitioners were less like France and Britain?

What would the modern world look like in which countries like Canada, Iran, Switzerland, India, or Spain were considered more the norm for powerful, successful states?

Where linguistic homogeneity was more associated with cute little exceptions-that-prove-the-rule like Norway, Cuba, or Latvia....or with failures/aberrations like North Korea, Somalia, or Serbia?

Linguistic homogenization happened remarkably late in our TL, even in prototypical assimilationist countries like the US and France. I suspect the inevitability of the trend is highly overrated. I'll go down some more specific rabbit holes with this later, but....

Thoughts? Ideas? Unsupported, unhelpful 2-3 sentence declarations that X or Y aspect of OTL couldn't realistically change, sorry?
 
If one of the language is "de-nationalized", like Spanisn and Iranian, you have examples of it today with Paraguay and Iran.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
the problem is "modern nation-state" growing together with : bureaucracy, mass education, conscription and mass media.

Its possible to have nation-state with more than one language, but very difficult. what language did bureaucracy use ? what language implemented in primary school ? to conscript in army ? to be used in newspaper and radio ?

Nations that majority of its citizens is at least bilingual could do that. Nations with widespread lingua-franca could do that, but likely ended up with that as national language. Nation with strong history and institution might survive even with language problem. But its all very difficult. different language would push citizens to separate grouping, hindering growth of national feeling. Its way easier to generate national feeling when citizens could mingle in same school, fought together in army, reading same news, and could deal with universal bureaucracy.
 
But aren't these states ultimately multicultural states dominated by a single ethnicity? No matter how diverse China can be, it is ultimately semi-dominated by North and East Chinese, same for Iran and same for the Soviets even, for reasons of demography. I can't speak for India, but I suspect it's a bit more drastic.

Indeed, Iran has historically played it's minorities against each other in a century-old balancing act.
 
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Well, you have my country, with Tagalog and Cebuano and various regional languages in relative semi-feudal harmony. :p
 
Well, you have my country, with Tagalog and Cebuano and various regional languages in relative semi-feudal harmony. :p

The Philippines would've become at least three separate states without Spanish and American colonialism, though.

However, if the peoples of a multiethnic state are sufficiently similar culturally, the state in question can work - just look at India, it's a wildly diverse place but millennia of cultural and religious borrowings between the subcontinent's peoples, not to mention the various attempts at the creation of an unified empire in the pre-colonial past, have created a cultural/religious superstratum in which most of the subcontinent can identify with.

The same could've been said about the countries of Western Europe if minority languages hadn't been driven to near extinction.
 
The Philippines would've become at least three separate states without Spanish and American colonialism, though.

Eh, without those four hundred years, my country wouldn't exist at all. We'd be a backwater province of Indonesia, or a league of polities akin to the Hanseatic League, or an extension of an alt-Chinese state or something. So that's not much of an argument against my statement. :p
 
Eh, without those four hundred years, my country wouldn't exist at all. We'd be a backwater province of Indonesia, or a league of polities akin to the Hanseatic League, or an extension of an alt-Chinese state or something. So that's not much of an argument against my statement. :p

...except Indonesia's yet another product of colonialism, despite the obvious cultural ties between the country's peoples. A world without the Philippines might as well also be a world without Indonesia. The Malays and the Javanese might in fact end up in two separate states, instead of inhabiting a Malay-speaking country dominated by a Javanese élite.
 
If one of the language is "de-nationalized", like Spanish and Iranian, you have examples of it today with Paraguay and Iran.

Could you elaborate?

I can parse that Spanish was set aside in Paraguay in favor of a Guarani standard, but I'm not sure that meets the criteria I hope to discuss. Paraguay seems to be trending toward using Guarani as a unitary national language like any other nation might, while Spanish will remain in use as an essential regional lingua franca. What I'm more interested in is the plausibility (or interesting reasons for the lack of plausibility) of national states less insistent on having a single standard. So to continue with Paraguay, a scenario in which Argentina failed to reconcile Buenos Aires with the provinces, causing the two to split: A lucky Brazil ITTL might eventually hold OTL Uruguay, Paraguay, and northeast Argentina. Obviously there would be impetus to impose Portuguese language, but we could imagine scenarios in which political expedience placed Guarani and Spanish into the situation French has in Canada. For example, extending local official status to Guarani to distance the province from Spanish-speaking South America, setting a precedent extended to Spanish later to diffuse discontent at Portuguese-only schooling (or whatever).

That would mean the dominant power in South America, maybe the dominant power in the South Atlantic, would have an awkward multi-polar language policy. It wouldn't be an incredible stretch to imagine this model copied or modified by Andean states to handle large regions where most don't speak Spanish.

With regards to Iran, I'm not sure even what you're referring to. Elaboration?

the problem is "modern nation-state" growing together with : bureaucracy, mass education, conscription and mass media.

Its possible to have nation-state with more than one language, but very difficult. what language did bureaucracy use ? what language implemented in primary school ? to conscript in army ? to be used in newspaper and radio ?

I definitely agree. Managing a state incentivizes chasing ease of administration; a linguistic patchwork poses a obstacle. Beyond dispute.

Yet looking around, it's clear that at times countervailing forces avert this, and the results do not have to be disastrous. Switzerland is doing fine; to Canada and Belgium, bilateral division sometimes seems to be a mere inconvenience; the EU struggles with many challenges, but legions of paid translators are probably among the least of these. Heck, prior to the World Wars, German had a major (and now largely forgotten) role in the US; even being the language of local government at times. After initial complaints in colonial times, it's difficult to track any negative consequences of this German Belt (Pennsylvania to Iowa) until Wilhelm started going on about how the US wouldn't dare bother Germany because all the German Americans would revolt. That looks mostly contingent.

With regard to the questions, the first option would stem from US/EU type consensual relations. In that case, you'd have multiple parallel systems (for bureaucracy, schools, military, and media) and high expectations of multilingualism. It'd be awkward and imperfect, but it could function. No doubt many would blast it as inefficient.... and coincidentally most of those people would happen to have grown up speaking the country's largest (or majority) language.

Another option would be the dynastic Chinese model: The bureaucracy, schools, military, and media would have a written standard, while a large variety of spoken languages existed in parallel non-competition. The pre-Taiping period is especially significant, because the official spoken dialect (to the extent such a thing existed) was Lower-Yangtze Mandarin, a distinct minority language partway between Mandarin and Wu. In a world where China creates or co-creates modernity, much of Asia might run on standardized written grammars adaptable to enormous spoken-language diversity. And those written systems need not be founded in extant majority languages.

Nations that majority of its citizens is at least bilingual could do that. Nations with widespread lingua-franca could do that, but likely ended up with that as national language. Nation with strong history and institution might survive even with language problem. But its all very difficult. different language would push citizens to separate grouping, hindering growth of national feeling. Its way easier to generate national feeling when citizens could mingle in same school, fought together in army, reading same news, and could deal with universal bureaucracy.

Agreed. Some political units form, though, in which imposing a single language is an enormous work of generations - and pushback may begin long before homogeneity arrives. Not everyone is the Irish. In others, consensual or semi-consensual political considerations transform the "easy" route into the path of greatest resistance. Again: Canada, Spain, Switzerland, the EU....

If Pennsylvania had been legally bilingual in English and German by 1776, say, and an anti-Catholic governor in Canada had alienated the locals enough for a pro-Patriot faction to launch a coup in Quebec. Perhaps a radical government in New Jersey gets carried away enough to give even Dutch official standing. By that TL's equivalent to the Constitutional Convention, it might have become impractical either to leave language unmentioned or to set English as the sole national language. And if OTL is any indication, once multilingualism is in the Constitution, you might as well wait for the sun to burn out. It's not going to change soon.

States like modern France and America run on civic nationalism, forgoing more traditional binding systems of religious or ethnic uniformity. I'm wondering if there's really such an obstacle to extending the same principle to civic-nationalism-with-many-tongues. Not least because most modern countries evolved from (or still are) states that contained many spoken and/or written languages.
 
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Im fairly sure that this is the case in a lot of countries already, at least in the Maghreb I am fairly sure that they have an absurd amount of national languages.
 
Certainly some Scottish national elements have a bilingual element with Scottish Gaelic and Scots. British Nationalism can be indirectly multilingual but that more comes down to an individual then a group mentality. This could be lazily be placed upon numerous people who happen to speak two national languages and see themselves as Nationalists. Certainly Norway could be interrupted as fitting the bill but different standard spellings really don't count as different languages. Though I cannot confirm this, I do believe some elements of early Hindu Nationalism promoted the use of Hindi and Sanskrit.
 
So it's factually multilingual, isn't it.
I mean, I interpreted the OP as asking what if most modern nationstates were officially multilingual rather than most being built on one language like in OTL (it's why, I presumed, Canada and Switzerland are given as examples).

Latvia and Norway may have important minority languages, but they are politically and demographically dominated by one major language.
 
I mean, I interpreted the OP as asking what if most modern nationstates were officially multilingual rather than most being built on one language like in OTL (it's why, I presumed, Canada and Switzerland are given as examples).

Latvia and Norway may have important minority languages, but they are politically and demographically dominated by one major language.
Well, but the OP gave Iran as his counter-example. In Iran, too, only one language (Persian) is the official national language, even though countless languages are spoken in the country.
How is Iran different from Latvia in this respect?
 
I think nation states which started out and remained monolingual are really rare exceptions. Cuba, Iceland, the Koreas, I´m sure we might be able to come up with a handful of others, but in a lot more cases (see France or Britain), Nationalism didn`t grow in a monolilingual environment, it forcefully and coercively created it.

To counter that, you don`t need to choose some "exceptional" country to spearhead Nationalism. You'd need the idea to be conceptualised differently. One thing which comes to mind is to avoid a Humboldtian philosophy of language, which links "thought structures" or "mentality" with language structures. But that's too little too late.
 
Well, but the OP gave Iran as his counter-example. In Iran, too, only one language (Persian) is the official national language, even though countless languages are spoken in the country.
How is Iran different from Latvia in this respect?
No idea. Persian speakers makes up 53% of Iran's population, while their closest competitors are at 10% of less, and Persian is the only official language there. In this respect, there isn't really a difference between Iran and Latvia in that regard.

OP does state that their view of Iran being multilingual comes from personal perspective, though (looking at a map and seeing a bunch of colors - it should be noted that linguistic maps almost always overstate the presence of minority languages)
 
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