Napoleon Wins Waterloo, What Next?

I looked in the archives and there's a few threads along similar lines but I thought I might start this debate up again.

There's been a tremendous amount of discussion and arguement over the years as to whether or not Napoleon could have won the Battle of Waterloo. These arguements seem immaterial to me in that, even if Napoleon had won, what could he do next?

France is alone, she has no allies. Manpower is all but exhausted. The treasury is bare. The Coalation will reform and march on France, it may take time but it will happen. The War of 1812 is over and the British Army there available for duty in Europe. Spain may not be an offensive threat but it can't be ignored either.

So, assuming a French victory, as Napoleon Bonaparte what do you do next? Dig in and try to hold off the Allies? Attack? Try and sue for peace on some sort of reasonable terms?

Personally I see zero chance of any settlement, waiting for an attack will doom France and attacking doesn't seem much of an option.

Any thoughts?
 
Realistically, there won't be anymore expansion, the best he can hope for is a ratification of the status quo, but with a Bonaparte instead of a Bourbon on the French throne.
 

Typo

Banned
Big changes at congress of vienna, waterloo was considered a British victory, so expect much less British influence on the continenent.
 
The way I have it going in Ameriwank is that he defeats the British at Waterloo and needs one more big victory to at least retain France. He marches eastward towards Germany to take on his biggest threat, the incoming Russian Army. He makes a decent stand near some German town but in the end he is still defeated there by the monster Russian-German-Austrian force. Napoleon is executed, France gets the monarchy back with some other penalities, and Russia and Austria dominate the Congress of Vienna
 
Actually the Vienna Convention was nearing it's end at the time of Waterloo so I'm not really sure what effect it would have.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
A lot of people think that a Napoleonic victory at Waterloo would have made little difference due to the oncoming Russian-Austrian forces. But anything is possible, and we're talking about Napoleon here. And considering the distrust present among the Allies, it is reasonable to suppose that a victory at Waterloo could have resulted in the restoration of Napoleon in France, though it would have been within the borders of 1792.
 
Wasn't his son and wife with the Austrians at this stage?

Not sure how it will affect things but it might do if he wins at Waterloo
 
So, assuming a French victory, as Napoleon Bonaparte what do you do next? Dig in and try to hold off the Allies? Attack? Try and sue for peace on some sort of reasonable terms?

Personally I see zero chance of any settlement, waiting for an attack will doom France and attacking doesn't seem much of an option.

Napoleon will most likely try to go on the offensive and defeat the armies of Coalition one at a time before they can link up and join forces. That's the short. In the long term, Napoleon will still lose because, he was psychologically incapable of stopping the war even though he hd several opportunities to do so. He didn't understand that marrying into the royal family of one of his emenies, especially the Habsburgs, would have been just effective as invading the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
 
So, assuming a French victory, as Napoleon Bonaparte what do you do next? Dig in and try to hold off the Allies? Attack? Try and sue for peace on some sort of reasonable terms?

Personally I see zero chance of any settlement, waiting for an attack will doom France and attacking doesn't seem much of an option.

Napoleon will most likely try to go on the offensive and defeat the armies of Coalition one at a time before they can link up and join forces. That's the short term. In the long term, Napoleon will still lose because, he was psychologically incapable of stopping the war even though he had several opportunities to do so. He didn't understand that marrying into the royal family of one of his emenies, especially the Habsburgs, would have been just effective as invading the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
 
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Susano

Banned
If the Prussians and Britons dont win, then the RUssian juggernaut will eventualyl reach France. The Prussians and Britons simply happened to be first in, well, belgium in this case, thats all. It will make a huge differene, Russia will be able to dictate the terms, but Napoleons doomed either way.
 
If the Prussians and Britons dont win, then the RUssian juggernaut will eventualyl reach France. .


That will take 3 to 6 month.

DUring that time, Austria can be taken out of the fight. Militarily if necessary, but diplomatically more likely ( they have a trump card in possession of Napoleon's heir ).

Given the Russian command problem, it's likely they will accept peace ( on good terms for them ) if they find themselves without any worthwhile ally against Napoleon.

Bottom line, IF Napoleon's victory is crushing enough to take both Prussia ( by capturing or crushing all troops present - I know Prussia had other tropps, but the ones at Waterloo were the first line - ) and Uk ( Napoleon's victory must cause a change of government ), then Napoleon has a chance to stay in power ( in a much reduced France, the best he can get, IMO, is Rhine Alps and Pyrenees ). If these two conditions are not met, no chance.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Is there not already a second large army already on the frontier ? He would have to dispose of the Prussians AND of this second army.

It might be worth his while finding someone to fill Davout's shoes at the War ministry and getting the marshal into action once again

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
It might be worth his while finding someone to fill Davout's shoes at the War ministry and getting the marshal into action once again

He left Davout in Paris because Davout was the one person he felt he could trust absolutely. He didn't want a repeat of 1814, when everyone in Paris was more busy betraying him and making arrangements with the Allies than with putting the defenses of the capital in order. But if he could have found some other option, Davout would have been invaluable at Waterloo.

It also might have been a good idea to have accepted Murat's offer to return to the fold. The guy might have been severely ethical challenged, but he had no other options but to serve Napoleon at that point and he WAS an incredible cavalry commander.

Another boost would have been to get someone else to be chief-of-staff and put Soult in his proper place- as a corps commander.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
He left Davout in Paris because Davout was the one person he felt he could trust absolutely. He didn't want a repeat of 1814, when everyone in Paris was more busy betraying him and making arrangements with the Allies than with putting the defenses of the capital in order. But if he could have found some other option, Davout would have been invaluable at Waterloo.

It also might have been a good idea to have accepted Murat's offer to return to the fold. The guy might have been severely ethical challenged, but he had no other options but to serve Napoleon at that point and he WAS an incredible cavalry commander.

Another boost would have been to get someone else to be chief-of-staff and put Soult in his proper place- as a corps commander.

Oh sure, I realise that Davout is doing an invaluable service, but I guess its hindsight to say that what use is an invaluable service in Paris if the battles are lost on the frontier ?

Of course, even winning at Waterloo, Napoleon's not going to be blessed with hindsight !

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Allied forces in 1815:

1) The Anglo-Dutch Army of the Low Countries, centered on Belgium, commanded by Arthur Wellesley(Duke), 112000.
2) Blucher's Army of the Lower Rhine, in support near Leige and Namur in eastern Belgium, 126000.
3) Schwarzenburg's Army of the Upper Rhine, from Mannheim to the Swiss border, including forces from Austria but also Bavaria, Wurtemberg, Hesse and Saxony, 254000.
4) Linking Blucher and Schwarzenburg was a contingent of units from minor German states, under General Graf von Kleist, 26000.
5) Just off the French area of Grenoble was General Baron Frimont's Austrian Army of Upper Italy, 75000.

Theater Reserves
6) General Graf Michael Andreas Barclay de Tolly, 168000 of the Holy Warriors of the Czar, just passing Leipzig when word of Napoleon's return arrived and immediately heading back to France.
7) The Prussian V and VI Corps and the Prussian Guard, @80000 men, probably not to be called on for serious combat.
8) 40000 Austrians in southern Italy under Field Marshal Baron Biachy.
Combined forces total 841000 in these armies alone.

Also undetermined number of militia, seige troops and other auxiliary forces.

French forces:

1) Fifth Corps under General Count Jean Rapp with 23000 in the Strasbourg area.
2) Major General Claude Jacques Lecourbe and the Corps du Jura, with 15110men including two divisions of the National Guard, to defend Belfort and delay Schwarzenburg.
3) Marshal Louis Gabriel Suchet with the Seventh Corps faced Frimont with 21000 men and was supported by...
4) Marshal Guillame-Marie Brune's Army of the Var(8th Corps) near Marseilles, strength not given.
5) General Lemarque had 7287 men to suppress a rebellion in the Vendee.
6) Generals Clauzel and Dacaen fielded 14000 on the border with Spain.

Oh, yeah, and this Napoleon guy with 128000 was going to Belgium, at a place near Waterloo.
 
If Napoleon's forces gain a crushing victory, and it would probably have to be his greatest, something which would put the twin battles of Jena and Auerstedt (Davout probably would be useful) and Austerlitz forever in the shade, that is to say the British and Prussian forces would have to be nearly completely destroyed, then he will be in a very strong position. Yes he will find himself facing Austria and Russia in the future, but both of those are relatively distant atleast for a few weeks, possibly months. Manpower, and perhaps more importantly horse power, should be in a better situation than it was in 1814. In the aftermath of a great victory it is likely that far more of France shall rally to Napoleon meanwhile the Russians and Austrians shall potentially suffer losses from disease, dissertion and the usual problems of operating so far away from home.

The political result of the defeat would be very significant, especially if there is some political collapse of will in London. No one afterall likes operating when your bankers have lost faith.

All in all Napoleon may yet be defeated by the Russians or Austrians but to hold it inevitable is too simplistic. If it comes down to a battle with approximately equal numbers then things could go either way.
 
Wow, seem to have stirred up the waters quite a bit!

I agree with the fact that Napoleon will attack, he realistically has no other option.

I do disagree that he can win some sort of accommodation from England or Russia, I don't think any nation would agree to leave him in charge.

I think a victory will buy him time but unless England decides to agree to some sort of arrangement Napoleon will lose and be either captured or killed.

Please continue the debate!:)
 

Redbeard

Banned
It is close to ASB to have Napoleon win the campaign/war - enemies were not just too many, but also too good by 1815.

It is much debated how good Napoleon's army of 1815 was compared to earlier ones. I think we can say for certain that it wasn't the best and it wasn't the worst, but no matter where in between, the allies by 1815 (actually years before) had catched up on the French in doctrine, leadership, flexibility etc.

So the happy (French) times of 10 years earlier, where numerically inferior French armies could outmaneouvre allied armies and decisively defeat them was over for good. With Napoleon in charge the French could still inflict defeats on the allies, but a truely decisive military victory (no intact enemy main army afterwards) hadn't been achieved since 1806. Not because the average allied soldier had become better, he on the contary had moved from a professional to a sometimes reluctant conscript, but because the allied had learned how to organise and lead a big army in the field. This made it practically impossible for Napoleon to achieve anything more than limited tactical victories - which means war until one part has had enough and quits - i.e. attritional war.

20 years before, when France's economy and demographics had been devestated by 20 years of war, France might have had a chance in an attritional war (it did so in OTL), but by 1815 with the battles being fought on French ground - it is over!

It is of course not impossible to have Napoleon win Waterloo, it was a close fought thing, but apart from ASB intervention, he is not going to anihilate the British and Prussian armies and repeat the trick against approaching Austrian, Russian and German armies.

If Wellington and Blücher are forced from the battlefield, Napoleon will have to turn his attention/main force against the other allied armies ASAP. Even if he gain another tactical victory, there will still be a handful of other armies just as big closing - something like the 1814 campaign - both sides have bigger and better armies - but there is no doubt about the eventual outcome.

Left is the political scene - will one side panic? In 1813 the allies had shown that the alliance could not only survive defeats, but even grow stronger - from 1813 the allies simply had a very robust determination to get rid of Napoleon. The French also gathered behind Napoleon with surprising zeal - but after all it was them brealking first in 1814. Davout's post in Paris might mean all quiet in Paris as long as Napoleon is in the field with an intact army, but keeping Paris quiet won't win the war - only avoid defeat through collapse. Napoleon finding it necessary to leave his best and most relaible commander in Paris point to the French political determination being the most fragile.

But a British-Prussian defeat at Waterloo will probably nevertheless change the world into something inrecogniseable. The two main conservative powers, Austria and Russia will rule over the European continent - only challenged by each other - and with UK focussing on its Empire. Prussia will just be a Russian client state, and most of the rest of Germany and Italy will be Austrian ditto - the German unification as we know is very unlikely - and with it WWI and II as we know (but don't miss) them.

We will probably still see burgeois emancipation movements and unrest as well as nationalistic forces by the mid 19th century, but the conservative monarchies, many of them multinational, have a much better chance of withstanding the pressure - especially as there won't be a militarily strong Prussia to beat out the pride of their armies and crowns.

Emmigration to America will, if possible, be even stronger in this ATL, and if the conservative powers survive first the burgeois and next the communist challenge, USA and Europe (the Empire(s)) are probably going to be active antagonists - I actually wonder if Darth Vader is modelled on Metternich? :D

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
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