More Portugese Asia

JimmyJimJam · Jul 25, 2005

How might Portugal have obtained and held on to more Asian territories, especially in mainland China (and maybe on the island of Formosa). What economic endeavors might keep these areas prosperous and in Portugese hands, with the events of Decolonization and the apparent rise of the PRC?

unsunghero · Jul 25, 2005

Portugal held the 'Dutch' East Indies for a while before the aforesaid Dutch took them over - during the time the Portugese and Spanish thrones were joined. So, why not formulate a pod wherein the Spanish/Portugese hold on to the East Indies and go from there? The Porguese also had Goa in India, so perhaps during the 1600s and 1700s they could expand their control?

Max Sinister · Jul 25, 2005

You could replace that king Sebastian with someone more sane who doesn't start the crusade against Morocco, or at least is better prepared. Heck, he took some thousand guitars on the crusade because he wanted to celebrate his victory. Or he decides to propagate missions in Asia instead. Or Spain and Portugal unite peacefully - the Hapsburgs inherited enough stuff, and there have been marriages between them and the Bragancas.

Condottiero · Jul 26, 2005

What about Spain(+Portugal) more successful in the war against the United Provinces. They do not create havock in East Indies possesions and the Portuguese expand like in the Amazon in the same century.

Othniel · Jul 26, 2005

Condottiero said:
What about Spain(+Portugal) more successful in the war against the United Provinces. They do not create havock in East Indies possesions and the Portuguese expand like in the Amazon in the same century.

Or what about Henri the Cardinal King or Sebestio having an heir? If Portugal is independant outside of Spain during the 30 years war their colonies don't get neglected thus the Portuguese can continue their Imperial ambitions aboard. That in combination with no Lisbon earth quake in 1775 would allow for a much more dominate Portuguese force to be able to stave off the Dutch in Indonesia.

Tyr · Jul 26, 2005

People have to understand the world is not a strategy game, owning lots of colonies throughout most of history was not a good thing.
Portugal was much more of a trade empire then a empire of conquest (ala Spain).

Anyway, to give them more colonies you'd need to have them remain a power of note in the 19th century where it became desirable to own a lot of land.

Othniel · Jul 26, 2005

True but it didn't help the Portuguese Colonies to be ignored by the Spainards. There is a bit of a matinance game going on and the longer Portugal can hold out against outside pressure the better those colonies do...for example Portugal won't lose the trading rights to Japan that the Dutch took from them if they can support their empire with Protection, and troops. Both the English and the Dutch preyed on the nearly abandoned Portuguese Colonies while Spain tended to grow larger with more protected colonies. Now if Portugal is able to not be part of Spain they'd care of only things outside the continet.

Condottiero · Jul 26, 2005

This is not fully right, as I mentioned during the years Portugal and Spain were united, "portuguese" territories expanded in Brazil to areas assigned to Castille in Tordesillas treaty. You could have a bigger portuguese presence by removing the dutch threat.

Othniel · Jul 26, 2005

But what of Angola, or India(Gao to be precise)? Less Ducth presence helps but the Spainsh generally didn't take very good care of Portuguese Colonies. Many of theese were weakend by the presence of the Spainish in Portugal by an unrightful heir. That union allowed for the Dutch attacks on northern Brazil, and in Indonesia as well as the replacing of Dutch trade to the Portuguese Trade in Japan.

Othniel · Jul 26, 2005

The Portuguese Empire and its fate:

wikipedia said:
Angola/Portuguese West Africa - colony (1575-1589); crown colony (1589-1951); overseas province (1951-1975). Independence in 1975.
Arguin/Arguim - (1455-1633)
Azores - colonies (1427-1766); captaincy-general (1766-1831); overseas district (1831-1979). Made autonomous region in 1979.
Brazil - possession known as Ilha de Santa Cruz, later Terra de Vera Cruz (1500-1530); colony (1530- 1714); vice-kingdom (1714-1815); kingdom under United Kingdom of Portugal (1815-1822), independence in 1822.
Cabinda - protectorate (1883-1887); Congo district (1887-1921); intendancy subordinate to Maquela (1921-1922); dependency of Zaire district (1922-1930); Intendacy of Zaire and Cabinda (1930-1932); intendancy under Angola (1932-1934); dependancy under Angola (1934-1945); restored as District (1946-1975). Controlled by Frente Nacional para a Libertação de Angola (National Liberation Front of Angola) as part of independent Angola in 1975. Declared Cabinda Republic in 1975 not recognized by Portugal nor Angola.
Cabo Verde/Cape Verde - settlements (1462-1495); dominion of crown colonies (1495-1587); crown colony (1587-1951); overseas province (1951-1974); autonomous republic (1974-1975). Independence in 1975.
Ceuta - possession (1415-1640). Became Spanish colony in 1640.
Ceylon - colony (1597-1658). Dutch took control in 1656, Jaffna taken in 1658.
Fernando Póo and Annobón - colonies (1474-1778). Ceded to Spain in 1778.
French Guiana - occupation (1809-1817). Restored to France in 1817.
Portuguese Gold Coast - (1482-1642), ceded to Dutch Gold Coast in 1642
Guiné Portuguesa/Portuguese Guinea - colony (1879-1951); overseas province (1951-1974). Unilateral independence declared in 1973, recognized by Portugal in 1974.
Cacheu - captaincy (1640-1879). United with Bissau in 1879.
Bissau - settlement under Cacheu (1687-1696); captaincy (1696-1707); abandoned (1707-1753); separate colony under Cape Verde (1753-1879). United with Cacheu in 1879.
Hormuz/Ormuz - possession subordinate to Goa (1515-1622). Incorporated into Persia in 1622.
Macau/Macao - settlement (1553-1557), leased territory subordinated to Goa (1557-1844); overseas province (1844-1883); combined overseas province with Timor-Leste under Goa (1883-1951); overseas province (1951-1975); overseas territory (1975-1999). Returned to the China as a special administrative region in 1999.
Coloane - occupation in 1864
Taipa - occupation in 1851
Ilha Verde/Qingzhou - incorporated in 1890
Lapa and Montanha Islands - occupation (1938-1941). Retaken by Japan and restored to China.
Madeira - possession (1418-1420); colony (1420-1580); crown colony (1580-1834); overseas district (1834-1978). Made autonomous region in 1978.
Malacca - settlement (1511-1641); lost to the Dutch
Mombassa - occupation (1593-1638); colony subordinate to Goa (1638-1698; 1728-1729). Under Omani sovereignty in 1729.
Moluccas
Amboina/Ambon - settlement (1576-1605)
Ternate - settlement (1522-1575)
Tidore - colony (1578-1605). Seized by Dutch in 1605.
Morocco enclaves
Aguz/Souira Guedima (1506-1525)
Alcacer Ceguer/El Qsar es Seghir (1458-1550)
Arzila/Asilah (1471-1550; 1577-1589). Restored to Morocco in 1589.
Azamor/Azemmour (1513-1541). City restored to Morocco in 1541.
Mazagan/El Jadida (1485-1550); possession (1506-1769). Incorporation into Morocco in 1769.
Safim/Safi (1488-1541)
Santa Cruz do Cabo de Gué/Agadir (1505-1541)
Moçambique (Mozambique/Portuguese East Africa) - possession (1498-1501); subordinate to Goa (1501-1569); captaincy-general (1569-1609); colony subordinate to Goa (1609-1752); colony (1752-1951); overseas province (1951-1974); local administration (1974-1975). Independence in 1975.
Muscat - possession (1515-1650)
Nova Colônia do Sacramento - colony (1680; 1683-1705; 1715-1777). Ceded to Spain in 1777.
Índia Portuguesa/Portuguese India - overseas province (1946-1962). Annexed by India in 1962 and recognised by Portugal in 1974.
Baçaim/Bassein - possession (1535-1739)
Cannanore - possession (1502-1663)
Cochin - possession (1500–1663)
Cranganore - possession (1536-1662)
Damão/Daman - acquisition in 1559. Became part of overseas province in 1946.
Diu - acquisition in 1535. Became part of overseas province in 1946.
Dadra - acquisition in 1779. Occupied by India in 1954.
Goa - colony (1510-1946). Became part of overseas province in 1946.
Nagar Haveli - acquisition in 1779. Occupied by India in 1954.
Quilon - possession (1502-1661)
São Tomé de Meliapore - settlement (1523-1662; 1687-1749)
São João Baptista de Ajudá - fort subordinate to Brazil (1721-1730); subordinate to São Tomé e Príncipe (1865-1869). Annexed by Dahomey in 1961.
São Tomé e Príncipe - crown colony (1753-1951); overseas province (1951-1971); local administration (1971-1975). Independence in 1978.
São Tomé - Possession (1470-1485); colony (1485-1522); crown colony (1522-1641); administration under Dutch occupation (1641-1648). French occupation in 1648.
Príncipe - colony (1500-1573). United with São Tomé in 1573,
Socotra - possession (1506-1511). Became part of Mahri Sultanate of Qishn and Suqutra.
Tangier - possession (1471-1662). Ceded to England in 1662.
Timor-Leste (East-Timor) - colony subordinate to Portuguese India (1642-1844); subordinate to Macau (1844-1896); separate colony (1896-1951); overseas territory (1951-1961); republic and unilateral indepedence proclaimed, annexed by Indonesia (1961-1999, UN recognition as Portuguese territory). UN administration in 1999 until independence.
Zanzibar - possession (1503-1698). Became part of Oman in 1698.

Melvin Loh · Jul 27, 2005

Heck, maybe the Portuguese could also get a good foothold in Australia, with the Torres Strait Islands and the Top End ?

Condottiero · Jul 27, 2005

Othniel said:
Many of theese were weakend by the presence of the Spainish in Portugal by an unrightful heir.

Unrightful heir? Do you mean Philip II? I do not like him at all, but he was the closest one to the sucession. He was not an unrightful king, in fact he was jured as king by the Cortes of Tomar after the death of cardinal Don Enrique.

Othniel · Jul 27, 2005

Condottiero said:
Unrightful heir? Do you mean Philip II? I do not like him at all, but he was the closest one to the sucession. He was not an unrightful king, in fact he was jured as king by the Cortes of Tomar after the death of cardinal Don Enrique.

Acualty he wasn't, there was one of his subjects, a female, that was the rightful heir and according to fuedal custom her nephew was the inheirter.

Here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_for_the_throne_of_Portugal

Condottiero · Jul 27, 2005

Othniel said:
Acualty he wasn't, there was one of his subjects, a female, that was the rightful heir and according to fuedal custom her nephew was the inheirter.

Here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_for_the_throne_of_Portugal

The problem was her gender, there was no tradition for Queens in Portugal. I am not sure if there was even a salic law that put her out of the question.

Nicole · Jul 27, 2005

Condottiero said:
The problem was her gender, there was no tradition for Queens in Portugal. I am not sure if there was even a salic law that put her out of the question.

Even so, the article seems to imply there was a male heir in front of Phillip

Wikipedia said:
According to the feudal custom, her late older sister's son Rainuccio, an Italian, was the closest heir, then the Duchess herself, and only after them, King Philip.

Othniel · Jul 27, 2005

Condottiero said:
The problem was her gender, there was no tradition for Queens in Portugal. I am not sure if there was even a salic law that put her out of the question.

Sons come before daughters, but she did have a stronger claim. Just saying that someone that is Portuguese should have a better claim than the King of Spain, of corse even the illegitmate Anthony almost had a better claim. Portugal had a few Queen regents but never did have a quenn even though law premitted. Here's a better POD, Henery doesn't become a Cardinal and marries producing an heir. How about that? Even if a single daughter is born it has to be better than Phillip.

Condottiero · Jul 27, 2005

Back at home I checked it.

Manuel I, the fortunate, had six sons and daughters (between parenthesis I have included the year of birth, the names are in Spanish):

Juan III (1502)
Juan Manuel (dead before becoming king)
Sebastian I
Isabel (1503)
Felipe II
Beatriz (1505)
Manuel Filiberto
Luis (1506)
Antonio (Prior of Crato)
Enrique I (1512)
Duarte (1515)
Maria
Rainuccio de Parma
Catalina de Braganza

As Sebastian died without heir the crown would go to the second son/daughter of Manuel (I checked also that: no salic law, although there was no tradition of Queens in Portugal), that is Isabel, as she was dead the rights went to her son Philip II (1st of Portugal). Second to the sucession line would be Manuel Filiberto, third Antonio (but he was illegitimate), fourth Maria/Rainuccio de Parma and fifth Catalina.

Othniel · Jul 27, 2005

Condottiero said:
Back at home I checked it.

Manuel I, the fortunate, had six sons and daughters (between parenthesis I have included the year of birth, the names are in Spanish):

Juan III (1502)
Juan Manuel (dead before becoming king)
Sebastian I
Isabel (1503)
Felipe II
Beatriz (1505)
Manuel Filiberto
Luis (1506)
Antonio (Prior of Crato)
Enrique I (1512)
Duarte (1515)
Maria
Rainuccio de Parma
Catalina de Braganza

As Sebastian died without heir the crown would go to the second son/daughter of Manuel (I checked also that: no salic law, although there was no tradition of Queens in Portugal), that is Isabel, as she was dead the rights went to her son Philip II (1st of Portugal). Second to the sucession line would be Manuel Filiberto, third Antonio (but he was illegitimate), fourth Maria/Rainuccio de Parma and fifth Catalina.

Then why did it go to Henry?

Condottiero · Jul 28, 2005

He was the only son of Manuel that lived in 1581. He was a cardinal and asked the Pope for permission to abandon in order to marry. He wanted to have a heir that would come in sucession order before than Philip II, but the Pope (probably after Habsburg pressures) denied the permission. However he died very soon and probably nothing would have changed...

wkwillis · Jul 28, 2005

It was only the loss of Portuguese loss of Formosa to the Chinese that kept it from staying south east Asian instead of Chinese. Maybe Hainan would have stayed nonChinese, too?
A Portuguese East Indies to go with Brazil?