Linguistic Development of Unified Western Romance Nations

[DominusNovus]

Lets assume that the crowns of the Spanish kingdoms and France end up united around the 15th-16th centuries. I know it wouldn't make sense for the politics, but I'm thinking something like Joanna of Castille marrying Charles VIII of France. The specifics don't matter, but the point is that, by the end of the 16th century, one crown is ruling the modern nations of France, Spain, Portugal, and Italy (the latter two extrapolated how easily a Franco-Spanish monarchy would likely dominate both). Let us also assume that such a unified monarchy holds together for several centuries.

What interests me is what would happen to the various languages spoken, when almost all of the Western Romance languages are in one country. Of course, it is not until much later on that we see efforts to standardize language (18th and 19th century, really). But when that point comes, and we have a variety of related languages and dialects (I started to compile a list, and then realized how futile that would be in this situation), what comes out on top?

Of course, there will likely be some classicists insisting on using some form of Latin, but that seems quite unlikely outside of formal documents. I also think it would be difficult for any one language to dominate over the others. That leaves a hodgepodge of various dialects of what we recognize as the Romance languages, perhaps all bleeding into each other slightly. Or, perhaps an effort is made to support some sort of constructed language bridging them.

 

[Aluma]

Highly interested on this for worldbuilding.
I personally think the "standard" official language would be something akin to Interlingua developed a bit more organically, though still not what the different people with their own dialects would speak on their daily basis.

 

[Gabingston]

Would they end up calling themselves the Western Roman Empire? Imagine if both this hypothetical country and the Byzantines (AKA Eastern Roman Empire) were around at the same time.

 

[cloistered scholar]

Wouldn't it be simple to just adopt Latin as the official language of state? Already have educated groups fluent in it, the Church and some of the nobility.

 

[cloistered scholar]

Would they end up calling themselves the Western Roman Empire? Imagine if both this hypothetical country and the Byzantines (AKA Eastern Roman Empire) were around at the same time.

In this situation, the Papacy is going to be the lap dog of whoever holds all those titles. Easy to believe they would add the HRE title at the earliest opportunity.

Whats interesting is whether the german states and the Hapsburgs accept this, or go their own way.

 

[Gabingston]

Wouldn't it be simple to just adopt Latin as the official language of state? Already have educated groups fluent in it, the Church and some of the nobility.

Does that mean that, if this empire survives into the age of mass education in the 19th and 20th centuries, that everyone in Romance-speaking Western Europe ends up speaking Latin as a native language? Or would it remain more of a use for formal state purposes and the common people still speak Spanish, French, Portuguese etc.?

 

[WotanArgead]

Wouldn't it be simple to just adopt Latin as the official language of state? Already have educated groups fluent in it, the Church and some of the nobility.

I doubt it will most likely be replaced by local dialects.

 

[Falecius]

A literary, formal standard existed for Castilian, French and Italian already, and to a an extent for Galician/Portuguese, Sardinian and Occitan/Catalan as well, although of course there was considerable regional variation. You are not going to see a single West Romance arising at this point unless the court selects a variety and forces it, but we are talking of a timeframe where French and Italian had roughly equal prestige, so it would be problematic.

 

[The Professor]

Does that mean that, if this empire survives into the age of mass education in the 19th and 20th centuries, that everyone in Romance-speaking Western Europe ends up speaking Latin as a native language? Or would it remain more of a use for formal state purposes and the common people still speak Spanish, French, Portuguese etc.?

You'd start with a hodgepodge of languages and dialects vying for "domination" in particular fields as in OTL. E.g. your home language, trade language, administrative language, court language, international relations language, etc. Some of these would be the same. Ecclesiastical Latin probably the most common.
As attempts to coordinate the ensemble "empire" step up (along) with the agricultural and industrial revolutions, you will see attempts to simplify and standardise single languages in each field, ideally with them all the same one.
So each will depend on what is seen as most common in the court, in the church, and in the people. If no local/regional "common bibles" are being made then I can see an argument for a form of Ecclesiastical Latin being promoted as the "Imperial Standard" for education and communication even if different languages are used in the home and at court. Compare Standard French here.
If the Church has already given way to local services and bibles being in the regional/local tongue then the Standard is more likely based on the court language or perceived popular language. Compare Standard German and English here.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Suspect they've wandered onto the Chinese model, actually. Well... the early modern dynastic Chinese model.

You have a legitimized universal language for the educated classes. You have a wealth of related tongues rendering spoken-language standardization a fantasy. You have a locked in imperial-national identity, and no getting around it.

As such expect the foundation to start with Latin as a unifying written standard, and expect it to diverge steadily toward forms more intuitive to the modern users. Deliberately or incrementally, they'll be creating a national 'rationalized Latin' distinct from classical Roman forms.

The spoken languages will depend on details of prestige, and vary regionally. Parisian French of the pre-Revolutionary sort will do well; Portuguese, Catalan, Castilian, Tuscan, Venetian, Roman, Neapolitan, and even Flemish all could as well... though probably few would stand out. Breton, Basque, and German would probably hold out fine locally. The court would have two main languages, one Latin; the military would have a few languages, standardizing within powerbases like the Atlantic Navy, say, or the Peninsular Army formations. Prestigious economic and cultural zones would exert themselves.

The inconvenience of overcoming this would probably outweigh the inconvenience of living with it, if this state was strong and successful. But if given a rude awakening by modernity, or in the hands of ideologues, a standard modern language could be attempted. Again, I'd council turning to a Chinese model: the biggest block is likely to be the foundation of Proper Modern Latin (which, to be clear would be politically Latin, linguistically something else entirely).

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

A more interesting PoD would be a surviving Carolingian Empire expanding into Italy and Iberia, with a capital somewhere in Occitania. With a de facto reunified WRE we may see economic flowering starting 300 years before OTL and less divergence in local languages

 

[DominusNovus]

A more interesting PoD would be a surviving Carolingian Empire expanding into Italy and Iberia, with a capital somewhere in Occitania. With a de facto reunified WRE we may see economic flowering starting 300 years before OTL and less divergence in local languages

I wanted to avoid a Carolingian POD as that feels early enough that Vulgar Latin could endure, rather than figuring out what to do with very distinct regional Romance languages.

 

[Mario]

Nothing of above happens.

Probably French gets the status of lingua franca while every sub-realm keeps its own.

 

[saltburn861]

Linguistic ones are interesting for PODs; and i've never attempted them as it's a very complex topic for me to understand!

ITTL, would we see French with some borrowings from Spanish, e.g. canada "canyon, glen" as cânada or câenuada
since a-circumflex is common in French?

FWIW, what Hispanic words would end up in such a French dialect?

 

[Admiral Matt]

Nothing of above happens.

Probably French gets the status of lingua franca while every sub-realm keeps its own.

Any argument that discounts the role of Latin, which was ubiquitous at the time (law, religion, science, philosophy, history) and directly associated with unified Roman identity, is not to be taken very seriously.

 

[Mario]

Any argument that discounts the role of Latin, which was ubiquitous at the time (law, religion, science, philosophy, history) and directly associated with unified Roman identity, is not to be taken very seriously.

By the 16th century nothing of this exists, at least in Spain.
Church apart, Spanish (and Catalan in most of Aragon) are used for almost everything else and there is nothing that could be called 'unified Roman identity' apart of the defence of the universality of the Catholic Church.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Does that mean that, if this empire survives into the age of mass education in the 19th and 20th centuries, that everyone in Romance-speaking Western Europe ends up speaking Latin as a native language? Or would it remain more of a use for formal state purposes and the common people still speak Spanish, French, Portuguese etc.?

Probably Latin ends up as the main second language, like English is IOTL.

I wanted to avoid a Carolingian POD as that feels early enough that Vulgar Latin could endure, rather than figuring out what to do with very distinct regional Romance languages.

Vulgar Latin had been dead for a century or more by the Carolingian period.

 

[Admiral Matt]

By the 16th century nothing of this exists, at least in Spain.
Church apart, Spanish (and Catalan in most of Aragon) are used for almost everything else and there is nothing that could be called 'unified Roman identity' apart of the defence of the universality of the Catholic Church.

Interesting. Citation? Law, science, philosophy, and similar pursuits of the upper classes were centered in the medium of Latin in the British Isles, Scandinavia, Germany, Poland-Lithuania, and I'm pretty sure in Hungary, as well. What made Iberia so special?

Of course there was no united Roman identity in the timeline where the imperial title was held by Germany and Russia. In the timeline where Iberia and Italy were both divided and separate from France. Come on.

But in the past 5 centuries, who in the West didn't ground their legitimacy in the symbols of the Roman Empire?

Unlike historical states, the state in question is the clear geographic heir to Rome. It's also almost exactly coterminous with the Romance languages. New political units create narrative identities early - the Iberians started talking about "Hispania" when the peninsula was still in 5 pieces. This entity will start to form and immediately seek a rationale for its existence.

That rationale will be Rome.

 

[Mario]

Interesting. Citation? Law, science, philosophy, and similar pursuits of the upper classes were centered in the medium of Latin in the British Isles, Scandinavia, Germany, Poland-Lithuania, and I'm pretty sure in Hungary, as well. What made Iberia so special?

Reconquista.

Of course there was no united Roman identity in the timeline where the imperial title was held by Germany and Russia. In the timeline where Iberia and Italy were both divided and separate from France. Come on.

'Roman identity' ceased to exist in Iberia very early as it was detached from those WRE/HRE disputes at early stage. There was Catholic sentiment, but the cultural identity was strongly tied to their own kingdoms (Galicia, Castile, Aragon...whatever) since the 10th century. Of course there was a concept of Hispania, but this was only achieved through the later hegemony of Castile, who imposed its own language to the other realms, not Latin.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Reconquista.

'Roman identity' ceased to exist in Iberia very early as it was detached from those WRE/HRE disputes at early stage. There was Catholic sentiment, but the cultural identity was strongly tied to their own kingdoms (Galicia, Castile, Aragon...whatever) since the 10th century.

Citation needed.

Of course there was a concept of Hispania, but this was only achieved through the later hegemony of Castile, who imposed its own language to the other realms, not Latin.

'Achieved' is irrelevant. The mere prospect of political union had regional elites casting around for a standard around which to rally, a nearly universal impulse around the formation of larger states from smaller ones.

And it may just be unclear wording, but you appear here to demonstrate a remarkable ignorance of the linguistic history of Spain, which did not properly impose a standardized Spanish until the 20th century, making it one of the last large European states to do so.