Large, decentralized USA

How could you get a USA that is larger but less centralized and less aggressive than in OTL? Here is the start of one possible timeline -

1775 - Beginning of the American Revolution. British forces bottled up in Boston, colonial forces invade Canada and succeed in capturing both Montreal and Quebec (POD).

1776 - British fleet and army sent to recover Canada, while smaller forces target Charleston, South Carolina, and Virginia. Colonial forces under the capable leadership of Benedict Arnold succeed in repelling British attempts to recapture Quebec. The British attack on Charleston also fails. British forces do land in Virginia and Maryland, occupying Williamsburg and Annapolis, but do not make many further gains. Congress declares independence from Britain on May 30 (earlier than OTL due to greater confidence from more success in Canada).

1777 - British launch a new campaign targeting New York City, whose defending forces are commanded by Washington. Washington's forces are outnumbered, but stiffened by veterans from Canada. The British succeed in driving the American forces off of Long Island and Manhattan Island, but do not win as decisive a victory as in OTL, and do not push further inland. British forces in based in Virginia and Maryland push north and occupy Baltimore and then Philadelphia after defeating American forces under General Charles Lee. Meanwhile, Arnold's American forces find British defenses in Nova Scotia too strong. Late in the year, France recognizes the USA and signs a treaty of Alliance.

1778 - British forced to evacuate Philadelphia and cut their troop levels in North America in order to fight France. British and American forces fight inconclusively in New Jersey, Maryland, and Nova Scotia. American forces drive British out of some remaining outposts west of the Appalachians.

1779 - British forces in Virginia move south into North Carolina, hoping to link up with Loyalists there. They are successful, and rally some Loyalist support against weak American opposition. Troop shortages, however, force the British to evacuate their remaining garrisons in Maryland and part of Virginia. A British expedition attacks Charleston for a second time in late summer, and this time succeeds in capturing it by the fall.

1780 - British forces in South Carolina move north to link with those in North Carolina. An American force under Charles Lee is defeated, and he is replaced by Nathaniel Greene. Greene tries to rebuild his forces and avoid major battles while supporting guerrilla groups and frontier militia that harass the British and Loyalists. In September, Greene's forces meet the British and fight them to a draw. Meanwhile, the French land an expeditionary force in Connecticut, which links up with American forces under Washington in New York and New Jersey.

1781 - French and US forces attack Manhattan Island in the spring, pushing the British back to the southern part of the island. A large French fleet manages to defeat the British fleet at New York, which has been weakened to support British operations in the West Indies and the Carolinas, and lands troops on Long Island. The British in lower Manhattan and western Long Island are isolated. When a British relief fleet fails to break through, some 8000 troops are forced to surrender, and unprecedented defeat. Meanwhile, a 2500 man combined British-Loyalist force is crushed in North Carolina. These setbacks cause the British government to decide to look for peace in North America and focus their efforts elsewhere
 
1775 - Beginning of the American Revolution. British forces bottled up in Boston, colonial forces invade Canada and succeed in capturing both Montreal and Quebec (POD).

I've just started reading Pox Americana by Elizabeth Fenn - great book. Well, according to Ms. Fenn, the main reason the Americans didn't stand a chance in Canada was because smallpox was raging through the troops. If General Montgomery (Arnold's boss) had inoculated the troops then the Americans would have a fighting chance. It is possible that Mongomery, and not Arnold, would be the hero in Canada.

Inoculation at the time was very controversial because it could actually spark the sort of epidemic it was intended to prevent.

In any case, Montgomery would have to act before January first of 1776 because that is when the enlistment of most of his troops ran out.

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Also: I'm not seeing how all this would lead to a less aggressive USA,
 
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Also: I'm not seeing how all this would lead to a less aggressive USA,[/quote]

If I recall correctly the British continued to occupy some forts in the old northwest as well as stir up indian trouble on the frontier for some years after american independance. With the total expulsion of the British from North America you possibly wouldn't have as much indian trouble.

Of course this does not butterfly away Tecumseh. So weather you would have a violent and agressive America that would eventually go abroad in search of " Monsters to destroy" would be yet to be seen
 
Well, one question would be whether this expanded USA would form the Constitution of 1787 as is. Without Canada, the British will have a very, very hard time maintaining control of their forts in the Northwest. This will leave the Articles of Confederation with a considerably easier task. Without the Constitution of 1787, the colonies remain united, but under a losely-modified Articles. They still get Louisiana from France, but whether they seize Florida or fight with Spain/Mexico over the Southwest is up for question. Even if they do, it will under a far reduced national government. The British will probably focus on colonies in Miskita and British Columbia, so the US will not get Oregon Country and the British will eventually end up with a Panama-like canal.

If slavery develops per OTL, then the South will far eariler face the problem of being overwhelmed by free states (because of Canada, Nova Scotia, etc), but this only cements the loose nature of the Articles. There still might be conflict over slavery in newly acquired territory, though, but without the expansive power of a federal government which might connive ways to interfere in the states, the South never really thinks about seceding. The issue of how many states get created would probably be quite acrimonious, however, since it will determine voting power in the USCA.

As far as Tecumseh goes, the state militias will handle him, but fighting Indian war due the inability of any government to restrain the tide of population moving west does not lead to the filibustering expeditions in other Countries, wars of conquest, annexations, etc.
 
Is Britian just pulling out without a treaty:eek:
Questions for the Treaty
Whe have the Question of Bermuda [Supported and Spent the war smuggling ammo to the Rebels]
Florida - ?Did Spain [Lousisina] attack [ITTL] the British in Florida, and capture Mobile/Pennscola?
Bahamas- ?Did the US occupy the islands till Spain kicked them out as in OTL? ?Did Britian then kick out the Spanish?
Quebec - ?Does the US try to force Quebec to join the AoC?

Whe also have the loyalists.
Without Canada to run to, I expect that they Hunker down and ride out the immediate post war years in place.
[NO:) GB doesn't control SAfrica yet:p]
 
I think the implication is that the USA would include Quebec, but I don't think that would happen in the scenario outlined. Quebec had been captured fromt the French only a dozen years before. Especially with the French actively allying themselves with the Americans against the British, they would be looking to get that territory back following the cessation of hostilities.

So in the peace treaty Quebec is returned and in that case France has North American territory again; that may make them regret the loss of Louisiana. That may lead to them pushing across northern OTL Ontario (assuming southern Ontario becomes a state in Confederation) following the fur trade routes into Hudson Bay Co. lands and the area around the Upper Great Lakes. Suddenly the US' NWT and northern Louisiana are in play, followed soon after by the Oregon territory...

Something like this perhaps...

T028741A.PNG
 
I think the implication is that the USA would include Quebec, but I don't think that would happen in the scenario outlined. Quebec had been captured fromt the French only a dozen years before. Especially with the French actively allying themselves with the Americans against the British, they would be looking to get that territory back following the cessation of hostilities.

So in the peace treaty Quebec is returned and in that case France has North American territory again; that may make them regret the loss of Louisiana. That may lead to them pushing across northern OTL Ontario (assuming southern Ontario becomes a state in Confederation) following the fur trade routes into Hudson Bay Co. lands and the area around the Upper Great Lakes. Suddenly the US' NWT and northern Louisiana are in play, followed soon after by the Oregon territory...

Something like this perhaps...

And if France does get Quebec back what happens to Quebec if the french revolution comes off more or less on schedule. Which I am assuming that it will given France's heavy ( read expensive $$ as in national bankruptcy ) involvement on our behalf just as in OTL.

Does Quebec stay loyal to the King? and in turn would he or maybe at least a member of the royal househould flee to Quebec? A sort of Monarchy in exile.
Somehow I don't think the idea of a Monarchy on the USA's northern border would go over very well in a nation that just fought a war to escape a monarchy.
 
I think the implication is that the USA would include Quebec, but I don't think that would happen in the scenario outlined. Quebec had been captured fromt the French only a dozen years before. Especially with the French actively allying themselves with the Americans against the British, they would be looking to get that territory back following the cessation of hostilities.

So in the peace treaty Quebec is returned and in that case France has North American territory again; that may make them regret the loss of Louisiana. That may lead to them pushing across northern OTL Ontario (assuming southern Ontario becomes a state in Confederation) following the fur trade routes into Hudson Bay Co. lands and the area around the Upper Great Lakes. Suddenly the US' NWT and northern Louisiana are in play, followed soon after by the Oregon territory...

Something like this perhaps...

And if France does get Quebec back what happens to Quebec if the french revolution comes off more or less on schedule. Which I am assuming that it will given France's heavy ( read expensive $$ as in national bankruptcy ) involvement on our behalf just as in OTL.

Does Quebec stay loyal to the King? and in turn would he or maybe at least a member of the royal househould flee to Quebec? A sort of Monarchy in exile.
Somehow I don't think the idea of a Monarchy on the USA's northern border would go over very well in a nation that just fought a war to escape a monarchy.
 
And if France does get Quebec back what happens to Quebec if the french revolution comes off more or less on schedule. Which I am assuming that it will given France's heavy ( read expensive $$ as in national bankruptcy ) involvement on our behalf just as in OTL.

Does Quebec stay loyal to the King? and in turn would he or maybe at least a member of the royal househould flee to Quebec? A sort of Monarchy in exile.
Somehow I don't think the idea of a Monarchy on the USA's northern border would go over very well in a nation that just fought a war to escape a monarchy.

This idea has sparked a map that has large decentralized North American country but it speaks French

Althist F-America NA.PNG
 
I'll just assume that the Pox America plan is discovered and publicised. The entire colonial power structure decides on independence and puts in a customs union (restricting the tariff to build a navy) but otherwise independent.
Florida to Newfoundland, including Bermuda and the Bahamas, but not the rest of the Caribbean British empire with all the sugar islands.
Louisiana is purchased from the Spanish empire after one of it's periodic bankruptcies, then Texas, then California.
Figure on a defacto Albany plan when the western colonialists ignore the weak coastal governments.
 
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