Lands of Red and Gold

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Is this true for all diseases? Granted, I haven't read much recently on this topic, but I thought that in at least some diseases, Old Worlders had evolved some genetic resistance which made them less susceptible.

Unfortunately, I could only read the first page of that article (don't have easy access to a paying subscription). It gives the example of how that worked for measles, but did it work in the same way for things like smallpox?

Simply put, thousands of years is not enough time to develop a solid immunity to a disease. Smallpox has not even been around for ten thousand years (and didn't spread to Europe until less than two thousand years ago), whereas some scientists believe that the bacterium that causes malaria has been infecting Homo Sapiens for the entirety of our species' existence.

A large portion of the death toll might not have even resulted from the diseases themselves. The problem with a virgin soil epidemic is that, because no one has previously encountered the disease before, everyone gets sick at the same time. This means that few people are available to: fetch water, gather firewood, plant crops, harvest crops, hunt wild game, defend against attackers, take care of the children, and care for the sick. It also doesn't help that some of the diseases in the Columbian Exchange package have a nasty habit of picking off a disproportionately high number of individuals who should be in the prime years of their lives (even today, chickenpox is a very tame illness for children, but it can easily be deadly if caught by an adult who never had it when they were younger).
 
Fascinating people, the Congxie.

Glad you like 'em.

Ah, I should have realised that! I was thinking of King William's War (War of the Grand Alliance), Queen Anne's War (War of the Spanish Succession) which were named after English monarchs, rather than King Philip's War.

I'd mostly forgotten that British had some other names for the more general European wars, too. I certainly always think of War of the Spanish Succession rather than Queen Anne's War, for instance.

Of course, sometimes TTL's names for the North American wars between indigenous peoples and conflicts may be linked to broader European struggles, too. I didn't have that in mind for TTL's King George's War (it's just an indigenous response to growing colonial population pushing them out of their lands), but some of the other wars will probably be along those lines.

In passing, TTL's closest equivalent to King William's War/War of the Grand Alliance is going to be a right old mess, but one thing at a time.

Further to the Cavendia debate, is the reason why it isn't Newcastle Colony with a Newcastle City (Newcastle-upon-[River name] :D) to distinguish from the New York Colony vs City thing?

I was figuring that Duke Newcastle wanted to get both his family name and his title in memorium, and so used family name for colony and title for capital city. Ego is not something which the 2nd Duke of Newcastle-upon-Tyne is lacking. Which will probably lead to problems in the long run.

I think New York is more a case of badly filed paperwork, as originally it was Nieuw Amsterdam in Nieuw Nederland colony (yes, Nederland singular, don't know why). The city was renamed after the Duke of York (the future James II) and it seems the colony also received the name just out of official laziness or confusion. A more logical formation would have been to call it New Yorkshire, although New York is named after a person rather than the city of York.

New Yorkshire would have been amusing. Especially if it'd been exclusively settled by Yorkshiremen.

Just imagine that accent :eek:

Okay, now I need to found a colony called New Yorkshire somewhere...

I think Jared has said there is no New York (as we know it) ITTL. Instead, there is a nation called Tigeria in between New England and Virginia. This is, IIRC, an outgrowth of the New Amsterdam colony, and thus culturally, if not ethnically, Dutch.

Yes, as has been mentioned in passing, Tigeria is around into the twentieth century (or equivalent), and is what the New Netherlands ends up as.

The name is a bit odd, but I'm assuming it's after the Tijger, which was the ship whose crew built the first settlement in 1613. If relations became strained with the mother country, I would see something more neutral than "New Netherlands" being wanted.

The Tijger is exactly where the name came from, yes. Without going into too many details, when it comes time for the New Netherlands to obtain independence, they want a name which is more, well, them than a reflection on the past.

One also wonders how long the feudal system of Patroonship will last ITTL. IOTL, it not only survived conquest by the English, but American independence, and didn't phase out in the Hudson valley until the 1840s.

If I remember correctly (aka what I can find on the Genocide and 30 seconds on google), it was dismantled in two stages. Some of the legal privileges were abolished pre-ARW, but the patroons continued to exercise control of land until well into the nineteenth century.

It would be quite odd, but interesting, to see this practice continue longer.

Still a lot of details left to work out about TTL, but in general I expect Tigeria to be an underpopulated place compared to OTL, and with the big landholders still exercising quite a lot of control. Grain (which ITTL includes wattles) will be a decent cash crop once sailing technology picks up, and estates along the Hudson will be well-placed to ship out grain. For however long they can make that last.

I also wonder what sort of ethnic makeup the state would have. The Dutch were never known to be good at settling virgin territory, and IOTL the New Netherlands had a lot of Huguenots, Scandinavians, Germans, English, South Americans (after the Dutch lost Recife), and African slaves. Given how mixed up this world is compared to OTL, I'd expect even more diversity.

Yes, attracting immigrants will be the biggest problem the New Netherlands (and then Tigeria) faces ITTL. In OTL, the colony was moribund for a long time until Stuyvestant's arrival and the loss of Dutch Brazil brought migrants and more interest to the New Netherlands.

ITTL, while I'm not commenting on the fate of Dutch Brazil, some of the effects of the Aururian plagues will be more displaced people across Europe looking for opportunities. Some of them may well be attracted to the New Netherlands. As in OTL, they will be a motley crew, drawn from across Europe, and perhaps further afield. South America? African slavery will still be legal in the New Netherlands, but shipping in significant numbers will be harder - fewer potential slaves to go around ITTL, thanks to Aururian plagues hitting Africa, too.

Of course, even if a core of immigrants can be attracted via that method, subsequent immigration is likely to be low. The New Netherlands will need to rely on natural increase. Mind you, natural increase will still be spectacular - the population growth rate of places like New England and even Virginia was very high in OTL, and the New Netherlands will be similarly high in its rate of natural increase. But if it's starting from too low a population base, even a high percentage increase still won't help that much against over-populated neighbours.

There was a part of southern Ontario that was settled (almost) exclusively by Yorkshiremen and has a lot of Yorkshire names--but sadly the accent has not survived.

Maybe there just needs to be a more exclusive group of immigrants... to a place further afield, where they won't be flooded by johnny-come-latelies speaking different accents.

Nice update on the Congxie! :)

Thank'ee.

Simply put, thousands of years is not enough time to develop a solid immunity to a disease. Smallpox has not even been around for ten thousand years (and didn't spread to Europe until less than two thousand years ago), whereas some scientists believe that the bacterium that causes malaria has been infecting Homo Sapiens for the entirety of our species' existence.

A point, but natural resistance doesn't necessarily mean full immunity. With the right selection pressure, a degree of resistance can appear in only a few generations, assuming that there's enough genetic variability to confer some resistance in the first place. (As you point out, one of the big problems was a lack of genetic variability in the Americas and some other areas.)

I'm also not so sure that millions of years are required. Malaria has been around for hundreds of thousands of years, sure, but it didn't really produce major selection pressure until the high population densities supported by agriculture.

Since then, multiple mutations have developed which provide resistance to malaria. Sickle-cell anaema is thought to have evolved independently five times, as I understand it, and various other mutations such as thalassemias, G6PD and ovalocytosis are also thought to provide some protection against malaria. Given how many different mutations have developed to provide resistance against malaria in the last ten thousand years (less, probably, given that agriculture didn't appear everywhere that long ago), I wouldn't rule out some evolved resistance to other diseases, either.

A large portion of the death toll might not have even resulted from the diseases themselves. The problem with a virgin soil epidemic is that, because no one has previously encountered the disease before, everyone gets sick at the same time. This means that few people are available to: fetch water, gather firewood, plant crops, harvest crops, hunt wild game, defend against attackers, take care of the children, and care for the sick.

A very good point, and one which I'd like to know more about. Virgin soil epidemics hit in other parts of the world, too - smallpox in Europe during the Antonine Plague for instance. Getting decent data is probably tricky, but is there any evidence that you know of that smallpox hit as hard in Europe at first as it did in the Americas, or if its mortality rate in later epidemics was lower?

I wonder what Congxie cuisine is like

Not as spicy as standard Aururian cuisine, probably, due to a relative lack of Aururian spices there. The peppers would grow there, but probably not most of the myrtles. Not sure about things like strawberry gum.

In general, though, Congxie cuisine is a partial fusion of what you might think of as traditional Southern (US) cuisine, with parts of Aururian cuisine. There's a lot of maize-based cuisine - cornbread, hominy grits, and so forth. Squashes and beans are popular choices, too. Pigs and chickens were something picked up early and happily from Europeans, and are the main source of farmed meat (plus venison and other hunted meats).

ITTL, though, this is augmented by Aururian crops, mainly wattles and murnong. Murnong is dearly beloved because as a root crop it yields heavily per acre and was easier to conceal from Cavendian raiders during war times (much like potatoes were popular in much of continental Europe). Wattles are popular as a form of grain, often mixed with corn bread, or used as flour on their own.

Incidentally, one benefit of combining wattles into the diet will be to eliminate problems of diseases like pellagra. Pellagra was a huge problem in the OTL South (and elsewhere) if people relied on a maize-based diet, and caused by the problem of absorbing niacin (vitamin B3) and the essential amino acid trytophan, both of which are lacking in maize. Wattleseeds, however, contain lots of trytophan and adequate stocks of niacin. Pellagra won't be a problem amongst the Congxie...

Nice update Jared…

Merci.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Not as spicy as standard Aururian cuisine, probably, due to a relative lack of Aururian spices there. The peppers would grow there, but probably not most of the myrtles. Not sure about things like strawberry gum.

In general, though, Congxie cuisine is a partial fusion of what you might think of as traditional Southern (US) cuisine, with parts of Aururian cuisine. There's a lot of maize-based cuisine - cornbread, hominy grits, and so forth. Squashes and beans are popular choices, too. Pigs and chickens were something picked up early and happily from Europeans, and are the main source of farmed meat (plus venison and other hunted meats).

ITTL, though, this is augmented by Aururian crops, mainly wattles and murnong. Murnong is dearly beloved because as a root crop it yields heavily per acre and was easier to conceal from Cavendian raiders during war times (much like potatoes were popular in much of continental Europe). Wattles are popular as a form of grain, often mixed with corn bread, or used as flour on their own.

Incidentally, one benefit of combining wattles into the diet will be to eliminate problems of diseases like pellagra. Pellagra was a huge problem in the OTL South (and elsewhere) if people relied on a maize-based diet, and caused by the problem of absorbing niacin (vitamin B3) and the essential amino acid trytophan, both of which are lacking in maize. Wattleseeds, however, contain lots of trytophan and adequate stocks of niacin. Pellagra won't be a problem amongst the Congxie...
I think perhaps that will be this TL's equivalent of Soul Food
 

Faeelin

Banned
Hey Jared,

Is there a .pdf of this available? I've got a long flight coming up and would like to have a copy to read...
 
A few more questions on North America if you don't mind Jared.

I'm assuming its eastern border with New England is roughly similar to OTL. But what would the border with Virginia be?

I'm assuming Maryland ITTL will be British. It might even be part of Virginia - Maryland was established 13 years after the POD, which is a bit of a gray area, as IIRC the 1630s were right around when the plagues start rolling through Europe and really messing with things.

Regardless, if Maryland is British (or English, as the case may be), the lower reaches of the Susquehanna River will also be. I'm not sure how far up this would go exactly, since the river with a bit of work was navigable above Binghamton, but the British would certainly get the territory known as Pennsylvania Dutch country IOTL (nice flat land excellent for agriculture - great for small landholders). A bit further and they might snag anthracite country and really be well-positioned.

That leaves the question of the Delaware river valley. It's hard to see the Dutch, if they have such terminally low populations, settling it properly. New Sweden is a possibility, but it's such a bank shot, considering it only existed for 17 years, and it came into existence only after the POD. Then again, we've had hints that Sweden leaves a greater mark on history ITTL. Still, it's surprising the message board posts from TTL's present didn't mention Swedish.

One odd idea though - IOTL in the final years of New Sweden, the largest portion of settlers were actually Finnish (especially the "Forest Finns" who had earlier settled in Sweden). It would be interesting if they settle in North America in slightly greater numbers, and end up developing into a discrete Finnish-speaking ethnic group in North America.

Oh, after a long aside, back to my original questions. How does Tigeria hold on with the British presumably on both sides. We know the population growth in New England and Virginia will be greater, and presumably the Dutch can't actually patrol the border and stop bushwackers from taking matters into their own hands.
 
This has to be one of the best timelines I have ever read or even heard of. Kudos, Jared, kudos.

Thanks! It's been a fun, if weird, one to research and write.

How come there's not been more effort made to exploit wattles in OTL? It sounds like an incredibly useful plant.

Well, for three not-entirely disconnected reasons.

Firstly, the early colonial settlers to Australia - and even for a long time afterward - had a much stronger regard for anything "English" (yes, English, more than British) and a strong disregard for things which were native. This included the plants, animals, cuisine, what have you. Put it this way: even half a century after colonisation, the preferred upper class cuisine in Sydney was to eat dried meat which had been shipped halfway around the world and was up to six months old, rather than fresh seafood from Sydney Harbour. Go figure.

This attitude included the view of native plants. While there were some notable individual exceptions, the general attitude to the native plants was to focus on European crops rather than native ones. This attitude took a long time to change.

Perhaps the most telling way of describing it is this: the biggest commercial harvest of a native Australian plant - macadamia nuts - was domesticated in Hawaii from imported macadamia trees, because the locals weren't that interested. Pepperbushes were brought back with Captain Cook or someone similar and left to grow wild in Cornwall, Britain, and from those wild plants, the locals started to cultivate them and use them for what became known as Cornish peppers - but in Australia, pepperbushes are largely ignored until very recently. So it took a very long time for the potential of Australian plants to be recognised, wattles included.

Secondly, the treatment of Aboriginal people was abysmal enough - to put it mildly - that most of the Euro colonists didn't listen to any of their knowledge of native plants. The disruptions to their culture and loss of so many lives, both from direct European actions and from diseases, meant that a lot of knowledge was lost anyway. This meant that their knowledge of wattles etc as harvestable plants was largely lost or ignored for a very long time, too.

Thirdly, even now that wattles are starting to be recognised as crops, there's a fundamental problem that, as trees, they are hard to harvest mechanically. Wattleseed essentially functions as a grain, not a more high-value crop, which means that hand harvesting is really too expensive to do much with in most of the world. (Fruits are valuable enough that they can be hand picked, in some cases. Grains, not so much.)

Wattleseeds are only really viable in parts of the world where farming is subsistence or otherwise done through manual labour, not mechanical. There is some work being done to turn wattles into crops in Africa, where wattle farming is more viable through manual labour, but not so much in Australia. Until someone figures out a viable way of mechanising wattle harvesting (there's some efforts along those lines, but without notable success yet), then wide-scale cultivation of wattles isn't yet viable. (See here for some more info.)

I think perhaps that will be this TL's equivalent of Soul Food

Why, yes. Yes, it might. :D

Hey Jared,

Is there a .pdf of this available? I've got a long flight coming up and would like to have a copy to read...

Unfortunately, I don't have easy access to a pdf converter. (I had it, but had to get rid of it because it was causing other problems.) I'd be happy to upload a pdf version of the main timeline rich text document to the website (ie the DoD/LRG website here), which I'll update in a few minutes. Or if no-one's able to do that, I can dig around and see if I can find a workable pdf converter.

I'm assuming its eastern border with New England is roughly similar to OTL.

Broadly similar, yes. The western part of Connecticut and maybe Vermont may be in Tigeria, and part of Long Island may be in New England - I'm not yet sure - but the border isn't too dissimilar to OTL's New York/New England border.

But what would the border with Virginia be?

I'm assuming Maryland ITTL will be British. It might even be part of Virginia - Maryland was established 13 years after the POD, which is a bit of a gray area, as IIRC the 1630s were right around when the plagues start rolling through Europe and really messing with things.

One way another, *Maryland will be English/British. The details are likely to differ a bit because, as you note, the Aururian plagues are really going to throw things out of whack. But whether part of Virginia or a separate colony, Maryland is going to be under the rule of the people of St George.

Regardless, if Maryland is British (or English, as the case may be), the lower reaches of the Susquehanna River will also be. I'm not sure how far up this would go exactly, since the river with a bit of work was navigable above Binghamton, but the British would certainly get the territory known as Pennsylvania Dutch country IOTL (nice flat land excellent for agriculture - great for small landholders). A bit further and they might snag anthracite country and really be well-positioned.

Yes, with *Maryland comes the Susquehanna and at least the western shore of the Chesapeake. It will take longer to settle, I expect, with lower population and because the tobacco boom will be cut short, but it will end up English/British eventually. Whether that includes the upper reaches of the Susquehanna, well, time will tell...

That leaves the question of the Delaware river valley. It's hard to see the Dutch, if they have such terminally low populations, settling it properly.

The Delaware River valley is probably going to be an afterthought in terms of colonisation. The Dutch aren't particularly interested nor capable, and OTL Delaware state is not really profitable for large-scale tobacco agriculture, since by the time it comes to colonise the area, tobacco is being relegated to a secondary cash crop after kunduri.

New Sweden is a possibility, but it's such a bank shot, considering it only existed for 17 years, and it came into existence only after the POD.

The Swedes won't end up with the Delaware Valley in the long run, I expect. (Although they may sniff around a bit.) Not that viable, really, and their main interests in the New World are elsewhere.

Most likely, Delaware will end up as English/British in the long run, although I haven't yet decided that point.

Then again, we've had hints that Sweden leaves a greater mark on history ITTL. Still, it's surprising the message board posts from TTL's present didn't mention Swedish.

Swedish was mentioned, actually. In post #40, the original "challange" specified that the minority languages in North America could be "Dutch, French, Swedish, Nahuatl, Congxie, whatever", but that English and Spanish were meant to be the main two.

One odd idea though - IOTL in the final years of New Sweden, the largest portion of settlers were actually Finnish (especially the "Forest Finns" who had earlier settled in Sweden). It would be interesting if they settle in North America in slightly greater numbers, and end up developing into a discrete Finnish-speaking ethnic group in North America.

The main New Sweden outposts (which are elsewhere in the New World to OTL) will certainly end up with a lot of Finns settling there. I'm not yet sure whether they will survive linguistically, but they'll certainly be a major cultural influence.

Oh, after a long aside, back to my original questions. How does Tigeria hold on with the British presumably on both sides. We know the population growth in New England and Virginia will be greater, and presumably the Dutch can't actually patrol the border and stop bushwackers from taking matters into their own hands.

True enough that the Dutch can't patrol every section of the border, but they will have enough military strength to take official action if needed, if people start encroaching too far into their borders. So long as England/Britain and the Netherlands remain officially friendly - not necessarily a given - the Dutch will be able to take what action they need to kick out unofficial settlers. Or make them pay tax-paying Dutch citizens, of course, which is the other option.

As to the longer-term official relations between England/Britain and the Netherlands, well, there's certainly going to be analogues to the Anglo-Dutch Wars. Assuming that the Dutch can hold onto the New Netherlands during those, though - and they will have more money to fortify New Amsterdam ITTL, thanks to spin-off investment from the profits in Aururia - then they're likely to hold onto New Amsterdam during those wars, or at least find it worth trading back for at the peace table.

Eventually, the Dutch and English/British will find other enemies who concern them more, and thus the Anglo-Dutch Wars will probably come to an end. After that, there's no necessary requirement for the Dutch and English/British to come to war again - they might, of course, but the main drivers will probably be resolved.
 
Broadly similar, yes. The western part of Connecticut and maybe Vermont may be in Tigeria, and part of Long Island may be in New England - I'm not yet sure - but the border isn't too dissimilar to OTL's New York/New England border.

I know the Dutch had a fort on the Connecticut River, but I think at the POD, British settlement of Connecticut was inevitable. Even though it only began in earnest in the mid 1830s, many of the settlers were from Boston, not directly from Britain. My supposition is while the plagues will cut down on cross-Atlantic travel, the North American colonies are already so sparely settled, along with infrequently traveled, that it might take years longer to penetrate the colonies, and make a much smaller dent in population. New Haven probably wouldn't be founded, as settlers there came directly from Britain, but Connecticut Colony should be fine. Some areas in the extreme southwest, like Greenwich and Stamford, may of course end up Tigeria, but once you get to natural harbors like Norwalk, Bridgeport, and especially New Haven, I think the British settlers will be looking at securing them ASAP.

On the other hand, if the Dutch succeeded, they probably would have gotten almost all of the state, minus the extreme eastern parts of the state.

As to the other border points, eastern Long Island would probably be settled by the British as IOTL, provided they settled Connecticut (the two happened concurrently). For Vermont, only the area around Bennington is remotely accessible. Quite honestly, I'd say the French have a better chance of reaching much of Vermont than the Dutch, provided they hold Quebec (I think they do ITTL). Look on a topographic map - the Champlain river valley is essentially an extension of the Saint Lawrence plain already heavily settled by the Quebecois. The same goes for much of Iroquois country IOTL New York - much more accessible in many ways from the North than it is from the South.

The Delaware River valley is probably going to be an afterthought in terms of colonisation. The Dutch aren't particularly interested nor capable, and OTL Delaware state is not really profitable for large-scale tobacco agriculture, since by the time it comes to colonise the area, tobacco is being relegated to a secondary cash crop after kunduri.

Remember, most of the Delaware is not in Delaware, it's actually the fertile land around Philadelphia and roughly what was part of the colony of West Jersey.

The Swedes won't end up with the Delaware Valley in the long run, I expect. (Although they may sniff around a bit.) Not that viable, really, and their main interests in the New World are elsewhere.

Interesting. I have a hard time imagining where this would be. The most accessible areas in eastern Canada are already filling up pretty rapidly. It might be possible that Sweden conquers part of New France and deports its population (given it's hinted Canada was/is a pushover). Besides that I'm having a tough time seeing the Swedish making a serious push to settle anywhere between there and South America, where supply lines would be rather taut.

The main New Sweden outposts (which are elsewhere in the New World to OTL) will certainly end up with a lot of Finns settling there. I'm not yet sure whether they will survive linguistically, but they'll certainly be a major cultural influence.

I was thinking a group somewhat like OTL's Cajuns - remaining ethnically distinct, and keeping their own language alive off the beaten path. Or maybe a Finnish-indigenous cross group like the Metis. Of course, it's up to you.
 
I just have to say this is one of those timelines that I find myself wishing I could take a vacation in. (After getting vaccinated against blue-sleep, swamp rash and Marnitja, of course.)

With all the cultural exchange between the Native Americans and the Congxie, I'd think that the Congxie would have picked up on nixtamalization, which (according to Wikipedia) also solves the pellagra problem. Although cultivating wattles would still be a good idea, so as not to depend too much on any one crop.
 
Okay, first off, thanks to sahaidak, there's now a pdf version of the LRG timeline available. Two versions, in fact, one small one without maps and a much larger one including maps. Both available on the website here.

I know the Dutch had a fort on the Connecticut River, but I think at the POD, British settlement of Connecticut was inevitable.

Hmm. My mind certainly isn't made up on this - the only area which I've decided will definitely be in Tigeria is the Hudson basin (barring up the uppermost reaches of the watershed, perhaps) and western Long Island. The rest is still something I'm deciding on.

The fate of Connecticut is interesting, and I think that parts of it could go either way, although I certainly think that the majority will end up under British rule - including the Connecticut River, incidentally.

Even though it only began in earnest in the mid 1830s, many of the settlers were from Boston, not directly from Britain. My supposition is while the plagues will cut down on cross-Atlantic travel, the North American colonies are already so sparely settled, along with infrequently traveled, that it might take years longer to penetrate the colonies, and make a much smaller dent in population.

The problem isn't so much Aururian plagues hitting the colonies - although they will make it eventually - but that the plagues hit just before the settlement of New England and much of British North America really got started, and really mess around with things for the next decade or so before colonisation resumes.

In OTL, the land grants for the Massachussets Bay Company were made in 1628, and Boston founded in 1630. The first Aururian plague, Marnitja, hit Britain in late 1627/early 1628. While it probably won't stop the land grant, it will definitely interfere with the timing of the founding of colonies. So will blue-sleep, which hits in 1631, will muck about with things, too. By the time people get around to sorting out new colonial endeavours to New England, it will be the later part of the decade, and there's fewer would-be colonists to send, too.

*Boston won't be founded until at least 1635, although definitely by 1640. There will still be plenty of Nonconformists who want to emigrate in the years after that - with the Regency being what it is - but the delay will give the Dutch a bit of breathing space. This also means that for a few more years, the Plymouth Colony is the only English/British settlement in New England. Whether that will make much difference in the long run, I'm not sure.

New Haven probably wouldn't be founded, as settlers there came directly from Britain, but Connecticut Colony should be fine. Some areas in the extreme southwest, like Greenwich and Stamford, may of course end up Tigeria, but once you get to natural harbors like Norwalk, Bridgeport, and especially New Haven, I think the British settlers will be looking at securing them ASAP.

New Haven and points further east will definitely end up being settled by the English/British. This has even been vaguely alluded to already - Newport is mentioned in the AH "essay" as TTL's name for New Haven. For Norwalk and Bridgeport, I'm not yet sure whether the Dutch or English will end up with them. Much depends on the timing.

As to the other border points, eastern Long Island would probably be settled by the British as IOTL, provided they settled Connecticut (the two happened concurrently).

Looking at it in more detail, I think that the most likely outcome is that *Connecticut will include less of its OTL south-western corner, but much of Long Island instead. Whether that means that it will be stronger or weaker in the long run, I'm not sure.

For Vermont, only the area around Bennington is remotely accessible.

I don't expect the Dutch to hold much more of Vermont, if any, but the Bennington region is certainly the strongest possibility.

Quite honestly, I'd say the French have a better chance of reaching much of Vermont than the Dutch, provided they hold Quebec (I think they do ITTL).

The French hold the general region of Quebec, as OTL, but it's very thinly-populated. The Aururian plagues also muck about with the further settlement of New France, too - the Compagnie des Cent-Associés was founded in 1627, with the first efforts to issue land grants and so forth. French colonisation was never as effective as English/British in population terms, and is probably going to be even less so here. While the French may establish a presence in parts of Vermont for a while, I doubt they can hold it in the long run.

Remember, most of the Delaware is not in Delaware, it's actually the fertile land around Philadelphia and roughly what was part of the colony of West Jersey.

Yes, most of the Delaware River isn't in Delaware, but would people be more likely to settle the mouth before they push too far inland? I'm thinking that there will be less interest in this whole area for a while. It's also pretty much the one place where I have yet to decide whether the English/British or Dutch will hold it in the long run - it could make quite a lot of difference.

Northern New Jersey will end up part of Tigeria. I'm not sure about southern Jersey/Delaware/Philadelphia. Maybe it's partitioned along the Delaware River (a bit like Uruguay on one side of the Rio de la Plata and Argentina on the other), maybe the Dutch or English/British hold all of it.

Interesting. I have a hard time imagining where this would be. The most accessible areas in eastern Canada are already filling up pretty rapidly.

This is going to be delayed by a decade or so, and to be honest even in OTL most of eastern Canada was pretty empty around 1630/1640. Newfoundland is colonised, and there's a few French outposts - Port Royal exists - but Acadia is pretty thinly-settled.

It might be possible that Sweden conquers part of New France and deports its population (given it's hinted Canada was/is a pushover). Besides that I'm having a tough time seeing the Swedish making a serious push to settle anywhere between there and South America, where supply lines would be rather taut.

There's a few places, but mostly it's a case of a crucial decade's delay - the Great Migration equivalent for Britain will be the 1640s, not the 1630s. Various decent ports exist without claimants, if Sweden is really of a mind. There's also parts of the Caribbean, although with the possible exception of Barbados, holding those islands will be another matter.

As to whether that will involve parts of Canada, well...

I was thinking a group somewhat like OTL's Cajuns - remaining ethnically distinct, and keeping their own language alive off the beaten path. Or maybe a Finnish-indigenous cross group like the Metis. Of course, it's up to you.

They could certainly exist. Swedish will still be spoken in at least a couple of areas. No reason that the Finns couldn't still be around, too.

I just have to say this is one of those timelines that I find myself wishing I could take a vacation in. (After getting vaccinated against blue-sleep, swamp rash and Marnitja, of course.)

Certainly would be fun to visit. I want some black noodles!

With all the cultural exchange between the Native Americans and the Congxie, I'd think that the Congxie would have picked up on nixtamalization, which (according to Wikipedia) also solves the pellagra problem. Although cultivating wattles would still be a good idea, so as not to depend too much on any one crop.

It's certainly possible that the Congxie pick up nixtamalization too. Even if they don't, or ignore it, though, wattleseeds will still go a good job of preventing pellagra. And, for the other reason they really get cultivated, trees are a lot easier to grow on hills...
 
I love keeping up with this timeline, I'm still impressed with the amount of the detail and effort that goes into it. It's one of the very few timelines I love reading and to which I am subscribed. Every update excites me :D Keep up the great work!

I'm not sure why, but everytime I think of this timeline, I imagine of a restaurant named "The Star of Tjibarr", a fine purveyor of Aururian-Asian fusion cuisine. It would serve dishes such as,

-Fried black noodles with stir-fried warrigal greens and medallions of freshwater crayfish (Yabby).
-Spiced red yam mash and succulent roasted goose :p
-Murray Cod curry with wattle naan bread.

I would end this delicious meal by getting intoxicated on sweet spiced yam wine.:) I haven't thought of a dessert yet for this "Aururian" meal.
 
I love keeping up with this timeline, I'm still impressed with the amount of the detail and effort that goes into it. It's one of the very few timelines I love reading and to which I am subscribed. Every update excites me :D Keep up the great work!

Merci. More is coming, as and when life permits. Lots of other things to work on at the moment, unfortunately. (Or fortunately, in another sense.)

I'm not sure why, but everytime I think of this timeline, I imagine of a restaurant named "The Star of Tjibarr", a fine purveyor of Aururian-Asian fusion cuisine. It would serve dishes such as,

-Fried black noodles with stir-fried warrigal greens and medallions of freshwater crayfish (Yabby).
-Spiced red yam mash and succulent roasted goose :p
-Murray Cod curry with wattle naan bread.

Hey, fire up the cross-time scooper and I'd be there!

I would end this delicious meal by getting intoxicated on sweet spiced yam wine.:) I haven't thought of a dessert yet for this "Aururian" meal.

Something flavoured with lemon myrtle could be very sweet. (You can, in fact, get lemon myrtle flavoured sweet things even in OTL.) Or cinnamon or aniseed myrtle. Or strawberry gum. Plenty of options, in fact.
 
I have been reading this almost a week in my free and non-free time :D, and it's amazing!!!!
I'm waiting to read what you have for South America, as you have say there are going to be great changes in Argentina.
Here in Chile we are almost in the same latitudes as Australia ¡ups! Aururia so it's going to be very helpful to TTL *Chile

THANKS!!!!!!!!!
 
I have been reading this almost a week in my free and non-free time :D, and it's amazing!!!!

Merci. Glad you like it.

I'm waiting to read what you have for South America, as you have say there are going to be great changes in Argentina.

Oh, yes. Argentina is going to be, well, quite, quite different. Aururian crops, and that's just for starters.

Here in Chile we are almost in the same latitudes as Australia ¡ups! Aururia so it's going to be very helpful to TTL *Chile

It will indeed, in one sense, although whether *Chile is Chile as we know it, well... Not sure yet, to be honest. The whole Southern Cone is going to be rather a different place. Whether it's politically united, I'm not yet sure.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Merci. Glad you like it.



Oh, yes. Argentina is going to be, well, quite, quite different. Aururian crops, and that's just for starters.



It will indeed, in one sense, although whether *Chile is Chile as we know it, well... Not sure yet, to be honest. The whole Southern Cone is going to be rather a different place. Whether it's politically united, I'm not yet sure.
Now this sounds very intriguing when will we start hearing more about South America
 
Lands of Red and Gold #48: Steps in the Endless Dance
Lands of Red and Gold #48: Steps in the Endless Dance

“The Dutch see only two colours: white and wrong.”
- Tjewarra (“strong heart”), Atjuntja activist

* * *

Jingella, it is called, in the language of the Gunnagal. Jingella: the Endless Dance. An eternal competition between the eight factions into which their society is divided. A contest which is ostensibly over the sport which they call football (involving rules complex enough to give the Byzantines headaches), but which in truth dominates their nation’s economy, land use, justice and even the military.

The Dance is an endless struggle, a contest of balance and delicate alliance and counter-alliance. The people of Tjibarr have stepped through the Dance in similar form for centuries, since the fall of the Empire, and the origin of their contest is much more ancient.

Unlike the rules of football, the rules for the greater Dance are not written, but they are equally real. Each faction struggles for advantage, and the members of each faction compete amongst themselves. Everyone vies for gain, but no-one dares to let any one rival become too strong. Alliances are fickle things indeed if the participants think that the other members are growing too prominent.

In short, in a people who were familiar with the concept of balance of power centuries before Europe articulated the concept, the Dance can include some very strange steps...

* * *

Black Cockatoo Day, Cycle of Falling Stars, 8th Year of His Majesty Guneewin the Third [9 April 1640]
Estates of Wemba of the Whites, near Tapiwal [Robinvale, Victoria]
Kingdom of Tjibarr

A chorus of voices, one speaking over another over another. Sounds of tables being thumped, men stamping their feet, or jumping up to look down on their neighbours. Fists being shaken to emphasise points.

In other words, a perfectly normal afternoon’s discussion amongst the members of any faction. On the whole, quieter than usual for the Whites.

More than half of the leading notables of the Whites had come to Wemba’s estates, which he saw as a personal triumph. Ostensibly, they had gathered to discuss the preparation for the coming football season. That topic would indeed be addressed, but it provided a convenient excuse for other debates. Ones with more import, though it would be a chore to get many of the Whites gathered here to admit the existence of anything more important than football.

The discussion continued for a time, the volume waxing and waning. No goblets had been broken yet, a sure sign that things were calm. Yet it could easily continue all afternoon, as debates were prone to do.

Wemba would happily let the notables argue far into the night, but it would be better if he made sure that the decision was reached before the notables had exhausted themselves in argument. He let his gaze wander around the chamber, lingering briefly on each of three other men, who met his eyes in turn. That done, he whispered an apology which went quite unnoticed in the din of emphatic discussion, and left the main chamber.

He made his way to one of his favourite rooms in his manor, a second-storey north-facing room. The shutters were open to let in the afternoon sun, and revealing a view of wealth-trees, yam-fields with dying vines, a few of the treasured kunduri-bushes, and beyond that his private ponds and the thin blue line of the Nyalananga [River Murray]. The room usually gave him ample daylight for reviewing correspondence or writing, or lately reading one or other of the marvellous paper books of the Raw Men. He would scarcely get time to read any of those today, though.

For form’s sake, he picked up the most recent book which his compatriots in Jugara [Victor Harbor, South Australia] had acquired from the Nedlandj: an account by one of their sailors of his visits to the Atjuntja [1]. Nothing could be more valuable for understanding these Raw Men than reading their own accounts of how they perceived what they called the South Land. Today, though, the book merely provided an excuse for him to be here until his three invited guests made their apologies and joined him.

Wemba had time to reread a few lines of the sailor’s account – apparently the Nedlandj found the Atjuntja’s human sacrifice utterly detestable, showing that they were at least partially civilized – before someone clapped outside the door.

“Be welcome,” he said.

Three men came into the room, as he had invited. Nundjalung, who despite his greying hair kept most of the muscular physique and towering height which had made him the best White footballer in the last two generations. Pila Dadi, greatest land controller [2] of the Whites, and the closest thing which their faction had to a first speaker. Kuryal, premier ironsmith and metalworker, whose reputation was recognised beyond the Whites; he was accorded respect even from their bitterest rivals among the factions [3].

“Somewhat quieter here,” Pila Dadi said, with his characteristic half-smirk on his lips. “A better place for you to read, if you find the subject pressing.”

“Knowledge is always valuable,” Wemba said. “And a wise man-”

“Always makes use of time,” Pila Dadi interjected. “So you’ve said before.”

“Truth does not stale through repetition,” Wemba said. “But with guests here, I’m sure we can find other things to discuss.”

“Like your other guests downstairs?” Nundjalung asked.

Wemba said, “We could do well to anticipate their conclusions.”

Pila Dadi said, “If they reach any. Beyond the basic truths which any man of vision can see, answers are not so easy to find.”

Wemba said, “Indeed. These Raw Men will change the world. We must struggle to accommodate them.”

“They will replace the Islanders,” Kuryal said. “The Islanders’ strength has always been seafaring; now they are replaced.”

“Now the Islanders have rivals,” Pila Dadi said. “Very strong rivals. Perhaps they will find an accommodation, or perhaps they will fall.”

“Seafaring is only part of the knowledge the Raw Men bring,” Nundjalung said.

“Truth,” Wemba said. “Much knowledge, much strength. We must ensure that the Raw Men do not become too strong.”

Pila Dadi said, “The Islanders dominated too much for too long; these Raw Men could be much worse.”

“Fortunately, the Raw Men have divisions of their own,” Wemba said.

Kuryal said, “We must foster those divisions.”

“Such has begun,” Pila Dadi said. “We trade with the Nedlandj, the Yadji have started to recruit among the Inglidj, and those Pannidj who raided in the west may yet return. All this is good, but we must make sure that these divisions endure, or too much could fall to ruin.”

Nundjalung said, “And give them no reason to combine against us.”

Wemba said, “So, the situation is obvious-”

“But the solution is not,” Pila Dadi finished. “How should we act, now that the Raw Men are part of the dance, wittingly or not?”

“We already asked that downstairs. And got about a hundred opinions offering a thousand answers so far,” Nundjalung said, his lips crinkling.

“True answers are never found easily,” Wemba said. “But we must learn their knowledge and their ways, as quickly as we can.”

“As you have begun,” said Pila Dadi, with a nod to the book at Wemba’s side. “All knowledge of these Raw Men will be useful, but most of all their weapons, those muskets.”

Three pairs of eyes turned to Kuryal. The ironsmith jerked his head up and to the left, as if snapping at an unseen mosquito: the ancient gesture of frustration. “Before I saw these muskets and steel, I thought I knew as much of metalworking as any man living. Now... I am studying them, but even with all the resources of the Whites at my disposal, I can promise nothing.”

“Even with the prisoners to advise?” Nundjalung said.

“They know little, or pretend to know little,” Kuryal said.

“Think you they be truthful?” Pila Dadi said.

Wemba smiled briefly at the archaic phrasing of the question – an allusion to the Tales of Lopitja – then said, “Perhaps. Our captives are soldiers and horse riders, not ironsmiths. I wear mail at need, but could not tell you how it is made.”

“If we cannot learn for ourselves, we must find those who can teach,” Pila Dadi said.

“It’s been tried,” Wemba said. “The Atjuntja have asked repeatedly, as have the Islanders. Their... association [Company] refuses.”

“We can ask harder,” Pila Dadi said. “And their association must realise that their Dance has changed now, too; they have rivals here. Let them fear that if they do not teach us, the Inglidj or Pannidj will.”

“Or we can buy more examples of their craft to study,” Nundjalung said.

“If that will help,” Wemba said. “Many times, craft knowledge is only in the heart of the maker.”

“Or buy their muskets and gunpowder for our soldiers,” Kuryal said.

“That could be done,” Wemba said. “They value much-”

“Much of what is commonplace to us, they greatly desire,” Pila Dadi said. “Much of what they would sell to us is of little value to them, but much worth to us. Such is trade.”

Wemba said, “We would do well to make what they trade commonplace to us, where we can.”

“As they will try with us,” Nundjalung said.

Kuryal said, “Or trade with both Nedlandj and Inglidj, so that they cannot set their own price.”

Pila Dadi laughed. “Truth for our own folk, too. Think you not that the factions will bid against each other?”

“Unless we make a stronger alliance,” Nundjalung said.

“An association together could trade better, truth,” said Wemba. “If it holds together.”

“If trust can be found for us,” Pila Dadi said. “Our capture of the renegade Nedlandj already turns many suspicious eyes on us.”

“Fear for what we might do with those Raw Men, not what we have done,” Nundjalung said. “Only frustration has come from them, so far.”

“Any threat is best faced early,” Kuryal said.

“He who cannot plan for tomorrow will fall the day after,” Pila Dadi said.

“So let us share some of the knowledge... with chosen factions,” Wemba said.

“Share what we do not have?” Nundjalung said.

“We have horses,” Wemba said.

That comment produced a long moment of silence, so rare amongst a meeting of Gunnagal. The guests thought through the implications quickly enough, and as usual, spoke even before they finished thinking.

“Horses which have already bred-” Kuryal said.

“And carry a man faster than he can run,” Pila Dadi said.

“Or news,” Nundjalung added.

“Horses which any man of sense can see will change the world,” Wemba said.

“Which for now we control,” Pila Dadi said.

“Though others might trade for,” Kuryal said.

“Truth,” Pila Dadi said. “No monopoly will hold.”

“So best to choose to end it on our own terms,” Wemba said.

“Offer some new-bred horses to other factions-” Kuryal said.

“And secure cooperation over trade with the Raw Men in exchange,” Pila Dadi said.

“Provided we are not too obvious, naturally,” Wemba said.

“Quite,” said Kuryal, with a shake of his head.

“How many other factions?” Nundjalung said.

“Two: Blues and Greens,” Wemba said.

Pila Dadi laughed at once, catching the meaning instantly. It took Kuryal’s face a moment longer to show he understood. Nundjalung didn’t, though.

Wemba said, “If ever Blues and Greens stand together...”

Belatedly, Nundjalung grasped the meaning, and finished the old aphorism, “Then the king will tremble.”

All factions were rivals, and some had longstanding hatreds, but the mistrust between Blue and Greens had always been the bitterest. Rare indeed had been times when they cooperated without all the factions uniting. Which made them perfect partners for quiet cooperation over trade, if offers of horses could secure their support.

“Very good, if it works,” Pila Dadi said. “Other options exist, though, as our friends downstairs will be sure to tell us.”

That provoked rather more heated discussion about which factions should be sought for cooperation. Wemba had expected nothing less, and settled in for a long, animated discussion of how best to secure the future of the Whites.

Hours later, with the discussion carried as far as it could be with only four speakers present, they adjourned. The task of convincing the rest of the faction leaders would have to remain until the next day.

After his guests were safely retired to the many rooms where they could sleep, Wemba returned to his favoured room on the second floor. A tinkling of the brass bell brought a servant hurrying to answer his bidding. “Have Nuyts brought to me, along with... two guards.”

Waiting took some time, since the servant would need to find his way through the night, out of the main manor house and over the hill to the smaller complex of rooms where Nuyts and his fellow Nedlandj renegades were housed.

While he waited, the flickering lamplight was not the brightest, but still enough for Wemba to read more of the Nedlandj account of visiting the Atjuntja. He laughed to himself a couple of times, and nodded in disbelief. Stins, it appeared, expected that every proper-thinking person should think like a Raw Man, in their beliefs and in everything else.

“Fool,” he muttered. Men thought differently from each other. Understanding how other people thought, why they acted as they did, was an integral part of the Eternal Dance. Surely not all Raw Men were stupid enough to believe the same as Stins? Not all of them could be fools; their knowledge alone proved that.

Nuyts entered the room, looking about as unhappy as he always did, with two guards following him.

Wemba rosed and bowed in the Nedlandj style. The greeting, though, while in the Dutch language, was of the Gunnagalic form. “Be welcome, my guest.”

Nuyts frowned; it was an expression his long Raw Man face seemed built for. “Your prisoner, you mean.”

“My guest,” Wemba said mildly.

“A guest held at swordpoint,” Nuyts said.

“The guards are for the protection of me and mine, not your imprisonment,” Wemba said. They had had similar conversations before, but Nuyts refused to believe. “You Dutchmen can be dangerous.”

“So they would just let me leave?” Nuyts said, sarcasm dripping from every word.

“If you like, provided that you leave alone – no way to be sure what you Dutchmen will do as a group – and do not try to take any of your horses or other goods with you,” Wemba said.

“I don’t believe you,” Nuyts said.

“Believe it,” Wemba said calmly. “If you wish to leave, under those conditions, the guards will not stop you.”

“Then, first thing tomorrow, I will-”

“But where will you go?” Wemba said.

“Anywhere but here,” Nuyts said.

Where, exactly?” Wemba said.

“I-”

“Any other men of Tjibarr would return you to us rather than give you shelter; the king and council have agreed that you are our guest. If you flee beyond our borders, the Yadji have sworn to kill you. Gutjanal and Yigutji [the other kingdoms along the *Murray] are too weak; they would hand you over to the Yadji rather than risk angering them.”

“If I reach the sea-”

“You will do what? Your own Company has declared you a traitor. The Inglidj have promised to return your and your folk to the Yadji, if they find you. The Islanders would find you a valuable prize to trade; their only concern would be whether the Nedlandj or Yadji would offer more for you.”

“I could go-”

“Where? Into the desert? I suppose you could find shelter there, if the savages who live there don’t kill you. They won’t feed you, though. Do you know how to survive in the red heart?”

Nuyts shook his head.

“I thought not. You could try to go east, and cross the mountains. If the half-civilized savages on the other side don’t kill you on sight, they might show you to a Maori ship to take you to Aotearoa. Perhaps you will be fortunate, and not have the Maori eat you. Then you could live among people who know less than we do, with no iron, no physicians, no kunduri, no spices worth naming, and almost as easy to anger as a Yadji. Would you prefer that?”

Nuyts looked down.

“No, the truth is that only among the Gunnagal is your life safe. And you must help us as much as you can, to stop the Yadji learning from the Inglidj, and invading us to force your return.”

* * *

Pieter Nuyts’s ill-fated attempt to conquer the Yadji (1636-1638) dealt a disastrous blow to the Dutch East India Company’s (VOC) ambition to maintain a monopoly on trade with the South Land. The English East India Company (EIC) had already despatched William Baffin on an exploration mission to this new land; now their English rivals had been given a vital opening to exploit.

The defeat of Nuyts’s adventurism led the new Yadji Regent, Gunya, to declare the Dutch anathema within his Empire, to be killed on sight. The VOC made a determined effort to persuade Gunya Yadji to change his mind. Their governor at Fort Nassau [Fremantle] sent emissaries to the Yadji realm to try to convince them that Nuyts had acted independently and without authority.

En route, some of the friendlier Nangu tried to warn the emissaries not to bother, that as far as the Yadji were concerned, the actions of the subjects were the actions of the ruler. Perhaps unwisely, perhaps out of a sense of duty, the emissaries pressed on.

Gunya Yadji is reported to have told the emissaries, “Tjibarr has tried to tell us such things before, striking against us and then denying that they had done so. We will not believe them, nor do I believe you. Your words are lies because your adventure failed, nothing more.”

Gunya had all but one of the emissaries executed, with the last sent back to deliver the message to the VOC. He also extended official hospitality to the EIC, giving them permission to set up two trading outposts on Yadji territory. One could be established in the existing harbour of Gurndjit [Portland, Victoria], while the other was to be built somewhere in the wide harbour which the Yadji called the Little Sea [Port Phillip Bay, Victoria].

On 5 May 1642, the VOC responded with a raid on Gurndjit, targeting the half-built English fortifications there. The raid caused some minor damage, but due to a stroke of ill luck for the VOC, most English ships were further east in the Little Sea establishing a new fort there, so those ships survived unscathed.

The undeclared war between the VOC and the EIC had begun...

* * *

[1] This is an account by Pieter Stins, called ““My Life in the South-Land”. It is an account of his experiences being in de Houtman’s first two voyages to Aururia.

[2] In Tjibarr, all rural land is notionally under the ownership of the monarch; what is granted to each person – usually noble – is the right to use that land. In practice, land ownership is one of the great prizes in the Dance, with intra- and inter-factional intrigues over its use being rife, as people try to outmanoeuvre each other for control of the most productive lands.

[3] Blacksmiths in Aururia have semi-sacred status and immense popular respect. This is a legacy of how the craft first developed in the Atjuntja, where the first blacksmiths developed a reputation for great skill and for being touched by the kuru (spirits). It has continued when blacksmiths were first recruited to travel east by the Nangu. Among the Atjuntja, even the greatest of nobles make requests of master blacksmiths, rather than orders to attend. Their social status is not quite as high in Tjibarr, but even there, a reputation as a master smith can transcend factional lines.

* * *

Thoughts?
 
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