Lands of Red and Gold

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Hi, I'm new here, but I've read the timeline from start to the as-of-the-present finish. Like the others who have read it and provided feedback, I am blown away (and as an Aussie, it's nice to see the Great Southern Land get its own epic timeline).

I myself am particularly fond of alternate culture and popular cultures, and I'm liking the idea of a Scandinavian version of Grimm's. The original Grimm's was Germanic lore, so it's probably not a stretch to see a northern analogue having the same impact.

I also wonder if the Native Aururians, given their incredibly diverse and alien cultures, will also have their own version of "Mayincatec". That is to say, when talk of these weird new religions and cultural practices makes its way back to the old world, rather than do the research, fiction writers will simply create an amalgamated Aururian culture that caters to their reader's desire for simplicity and excitement over accuracy.

My guess is that they would probably lump in the obsession with pain from the Atjuntja, the Death Warriors of the Yadji and the headhunting of the Daluming.
 

ingemann

Banned
I like the idea of different Scandinavian mythological creatures becoming more popular ITTL (nix and huldra have promise), but I haven't given much thought to the details.

A collection of folklore could be one way, we did see some collection of them in the early 17th century.

So here we could some different aspect on popular creates and some less well known becoming popular.

Nøkken (the nixie): in Danish folklore the nixie is one of the most terryfying monster, taking the role in Danish folklore that the devil did in English, someone people making deal with to learn craft and skill. While not as malevolent as the Devil, it took terryfying revenge, if you tried to trick it.

Havmand (Sea Man): A powerful entity which often marry humans, they are rarely shown as truely malevolent or benevolent.

Trolls: Trolls in Danish folklore are unique as they are usual described as beautiful people with tails, intelligence and mighty magic, they are often benevolent but they are still known for stealing children. Of course the Norwegian had the more brutish malevolent trolls, so both versions exist in Denmark-Norway.

Elves: Male elves are monsters who hunt humans for sport, while female elves are succubi.

Huldra: A beautiful hollow backed cow tailed woman which are known in Norway. Serve as a mix of Danish elves and trolls.

Valravn: A raven which have feed on the remants make deals with female against their babies, whose heart it eat and transform into a knight or griffin-like Raven-Wolf monster.

Mermaid: A lot more friendly in Danish folklore, known to sleep with human men and giving them children (there are a story about a childless couple making a deal with a mermaid for a child against the man sleeping with her).

Nisse: A minor house deity, which give luck and hard work as long as you give them food and respect, if not they take terribel revenge.

Sø/havmunk (sea munk): A sea develling creature with 8 tentacle instead of legs, often described as pious.

Helhest (Hell Horse): a three legged horse which is a sign of death.
 
Trolls: Trolls in Danish folklore are unique as they are usual described as beautiful people with tails, intelligence and mighty magic, they are often benevolent but they are still known for stealing children. Of course the Norwegian had the more brutish malevolent trolls, so both versions exist in Denmark-Norway.

Hmm. It could be kind of amusing to see trolls take up the cultural role in LoRaG that elves have in OTL. One more thing to confuse the unwary interdimensional traveler... :D
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Hmm. It could be kind of amusing to see trolls take up the cultural role in LoRaG that elves have in OTL. One more thing to confuse the unwary interdimensional traveler... :D
That would be AWESOME , Jared has already said that elves will be seen as sinister in this TL. Maybe the standard fantasy trope will feature Dark Lords with armies of sadistic brutal elves and skulking conniving dwarves assaulting the noble heroic forces of trolls and humans
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
A collection of folklore could be one way, we did see some collection of them in the early 17th century.

So here we could some different aspect on popular creates and some less well known becoming popular.

Nøkken (the nixie): in Danish folklore the nixie is one of the most terryfying monster, taking the role in Danish folklore that the devil did in English, someone people making deal with to learn craft and skill. While not as malevolent as the Devil, it took terryfying revenge, if you tried to trick it.

Havmand (Sea Man): A powerful entity which often marry humans, they are rarely shown as truely malevolent or benevolent.

Trolls: Trolls in Danish folklore are unique as they are usual described as beautiful people with tails, intelligence and mighty magic, they are often benevolent but they are still known for stealing children. Of course the Norwegian had the more brutish malevolent trolls, so both versions exist in Denmark-Norway.

Elves: Male elves are monsters who hunt humans for sport, while female elves are succubi.

Huldra: A beautiful hollow backed cow tailed woman which are known in Norway. Serve as a mix of Danish elves and trolls.

Valravn: A raven which have feed on the remants make deals with female against their babies, whose heart it eat and transform into a knight or griffin-like Raven-Wolf monster.

Mermaid: A lot more friendly in Danish folklore, known to sleep with human men and giving them children (there are a story about a childless couple making a deal with a mermaid for a child against the man sleeping with her).

Nisse: A minor house deity, which give luck and hard work as long as you give them food and respect, if not they take terribel revenge.

Sø/havmunk (sea munk): A sea develling creature with 8 tentacle instead of legs, often described as pious.

Helhest (Hell Horse): a three legged horse which is a sign of death.
Wow, thank you for all that!:D
One question how do the dwarves of traditional Scandinavian lore compare to their counterparts in the modern fantasy genre?
 
A collection of folklore could be one way, we did see some collection of them in the early 17th century.

So here we could some different aspect on popular creates and some less well known becoming popular.

Nøkken (the nixie): in Danish folklore the nixie is one of the most terryfying monster, taking the role in Danish folklore that the devil did in English, someone people making deal with to learn craft and skill. While not as malevolent as the Devil, it took terryfying revenge, if you tried to trick it.

Havmand (Sea Man): A powerful entity which often marry humans, they are rarely shown as truely malevolent or benevolent.

Trolls: Trolls in Danish folklore are unique as they are usual described as beautiful people with tails, intelligence and mighty magic, they are often benevolent but they are still known for stealing children. Of course the Norwegian had the more brutish malevolent trolls, so both versions exist in Denmark-Norway.

Elves: Male elves are monsters who hunt humans for sport, while female elves are succubi.

Huldra: A beautiful hollow backed cow tailed woman which are known in Norway. Serve as a mix of Danish elves and trolls.

Valravn: A raven which have feed on the remants make deals with female against their babies, whose heart it eat and transform into a knight or griffin-like Raven-Wolf monster.

Mermaid: A lot more friendly in Danish folklore, known to sleep with human men and giving them children (there are a story about a childless couple making a deal with a mermaid for a child against the man sleeping with her).

Nisse: A minor house deity, which give luck and hard work as long as you give them food and respect, if not they take terribel revenge.

Sø/havmunk (sea munk): A sea develling creature with 8 tentacle instead of legs, often described as pious.

Helhest (Hell Horse): a three legged horse which is a sign of death.

I would kill to read stories based on these. So refreshing.
 
That would be AWESOME , Jared has already said that elves will be seen as sinister in this TL. Maybe the standard fantasy trope will feature Dark Lords with armies of sadistic brutal elves and skulking conniving dwarves assaulting the noble heroic forces of trolls and humans

Does this mean that internet forums in TTL will have to deal with elves instead of trolls?
 
Does this mean that internet forums in TTL will have to deal with elves instead of trolls?

Obviously there are huge butterfly effects regardless, but internet trolling came from the verb "to troll" which isn't related to the mythological creatures at all. Instead, it comes from the practice of fishing by leaving a baited hooked line behind you in a boat moving forward. Thus trolling was leading a hapless newbie around on a baited line. There's no real reason why it couldn't be the term here as well. Except, of course, for nearly 400 years of different history.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Obviously there are huge butterfly effects regardless, but internet trolling came from the verb "to troll" which isn't related to the mythological creatures at all. Instead, it comes from the practice of fishing by leaving a baited hooked line behind you in a boat moving forward. Thus trolling was leading a hapless newbie around on a baited line. There's no real reason why it couldn't be the term here as well. Except, of course, for nearly 400 years of different history.
FYI the gay slang term troll also came from that verb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(gay_slang)
 
Perhaps a Scandinavian analogue to Grimm's Fairy Tales is written, popular enough to make those creatures more well known.

OTL had Hans Christian Andersen, who relied on Danish lore to write his fairy tale. I guess he's as popular in the Anglosphere as he is here.
Sure, his focus and style were pretty different from the Grimms' approach.
I can remember no being among the ones Ingemann listed mentioned in his tales with the exception of the mermaid.
There's also a quite important collection of Norwegian tales by Asbjornsen, also from OTL.
Fun fact I discovered today from a totally unrelated research, that is sorta relevant: Denmark IOTL was the third largest film exporter prior to WWI.
 
Obviously there are huge butterfly effects regardless, but internet trolling came from the verb "to troll" which isn't related to the mythological creatures at all. Instead, it comes from the practice of fishing by leaving a baited hooked line behind you in a boat moving forward. Thus trolling was leading a hapless newbie around on a baited line. There's no real reason why it couldn't be the term here as well. Except, of course, for nearly 400 years of different history.

Huh, did not know that. Thanks for pointing that out, it's always nice to learn something new!
 

ingemann

Banned
Wow, thank you for all that!:D
One question how do the dwarves of traditional Scandinavian lore compare to their counterparts in the modern fantasy genre?

Dwarves in Nordic folklore had more in common with leprechauns than Tolkiens dwarves. They small physical weak, greedy and you could get their treasury if you caught them. But here the comparison end, they didn't engage in mischief (that they left to trolls) instead they were mastercraftmen and shapeshifter (usual they took the shape of foxes, hares, otters and large fresh water fish, and while you get rich from catching one, the following curse was vast and dark, so in general the folklore told people to release them, of course in that case they would reward you for your generosity.

A creature I forgot was the "hanged man", this is the undead remnant of a hanged murder or thief, but while undead in general are malevolent monsters, the hanged man are benevolent and served people who was generous enough to give them a coin with them into the afterlife. Usual they meet up with the person later as a fellow human traveller, and helped them in their travel, only after a year of service they left their master, but first they showed the rope around their neck and thanked him, before they left for the afterlife.
 
The settlement of the Great Plains is going to be rather different, if only because the question is how are the settlers going to get there. Upriver along the Mississippi and then west? Westward from *Ontario? South from the lands of an *Hudson's Bay Company? North from *Texas?

Many competing states may leave the Great Plains peoples in the best position of any native states to survive for a while, although their long-term prospects may not be so promising.
Settling the OTL Canadian Prairies from the east requires a railroad, really. Sure, there were a few Ontarians who came west before that, but not very many.

And the cost of building a RR across the Canadian Shield north of Lake Superior is such that it will ONLY happen as a political move if Rupertsland and Ontario (or whatever they're called iOTL) are part of the same political entity.

In addition to GETTING there, you'd like to be able to ship produce (wheat, whatever) to markets. It's really tough shipping it east, again before a RR.

As for getting people south from Hudson's Bay. Good luck with that.

OTL, most of the early connexions were south along the Red River, and the Canadian Prairies might well have ended up as part of the US iOTL if the CPR hadn't been built.
 
Interesting, as always... but see below for comments.

... This doctrine of personal sovereignty first found explicit expression in France: “L’état, c’est le roi” – the State, it is the King.

Thoughts?

OTL French kings asserted lots of power, but couldn't actually wield it. The same was true in most European countries; there was a profusion of local and regional authorities and laws which the crown couldn't just revoke at will.

Kings who tried got into trouble. The smarter ones didn't press their luck.

In 1675 the power of the aristocrats was further curbed by the Great Reduction which returned most of the noble estates to the Swedish crown.

Without triggering a massive uprising? The crown would have to be very strong already to confiscate most of the wealth of the nation's ruling class without a fight.

ISTM that this narrative, plausible as it sounds, lacks causation. It's entirely plausible that the Aururian impact shifts the political development of Europe toward more absolute monarchy. But there's no explanation of how it does so. And an English monarch, explicitly claiming and holding absolute power? Abolishing Parliament? Very tricky.

And for this trend to apply all across Europe? Very tricky for one reason - not all countries will have strong, competent, adult monarchs all the time. Monarchs who are lazy, feckless, stupid, drunk, or sickly can't maintain such power. Nor could regents acting for minors. (It's one thing for the King by right of blood to brandish the scepter himself; it's quite another for some intermediary, whose position is a mere temporary legality, to do so.) Queens regnant would also find it hard.

The power of the crown might be sustained through royal weakness by an inner council of hard men - but then the king himself isn't really absolute anymore, is he?

There have been very few absolute autocracies in history, and even fewer have survived their founders. Look at the USSR after Stalin.
 
Without triggering a massive uprising? The crown would have to be very strong already to confiscate most of the wealth of the nation's ruling class without a fight.
It did in OTL, in 1680. That said, it was done with the support of a large parts of the Riksdag of the Estates (a Riksdag that had *not* been emasculated into a simple rubber-stamp) there, including parts of the (lower) nobility.
 
I guess from all the nationalists, Portuguese history isn't going to be very pleasant?

Not as such. Just a cadre of young, socially challenged ideologues who are very active online and think that Portugal should be referred to in everything.

Perhaps a Scandinavian analogue to Grimm's Fairy Tales is written, popular enough to make those creatures more well known.

This sounds like a very promising idea. TTL's version of Hans Christian Andersen may have a much darker bent in characterising the mythology of Scandinavia...

In OTL, outside of Tolkien what factors led to dwarves,trolls and elves becoming so well known outside Scandinavia?

Scandinavian folklore was spreading in the anglosphere well before Tolkien. For instance, the first recorded English translation of the Three Billy Goats Gruff (and their troll) was in the mid-nineteenth century. Still, while some of them may have been well known before Tolkien, in their modern conception, they basically are known as they are because of Tolkien and those who've plagiarised, er, been inspired by him.

Hi, I'm new here, but I've read the timeline from start to the as-of-the-present finish. Like the others who have read it and provided feedback, I am blown away (and as an Aussie, it's nice to see the Great Southern Land get its own epic timeline).

Merci. It is sometimes easier to write about a continent I live in, too. :D

I also wonder if the Native Aururians, given their incredibly diverse and alien cultures, will also have their own version of "Mayincatec". That is to say, when talk of these weird new religions and cultural practices makes its way back to the old world, rather than do the research, fiction writers will simply create an amalgamated Aururian culture that caters to their reader's desire for simplicity and excitement over accuracy.

It's an entertaining possibility, and I could certainly see fiction writers blurring the lines between the cultures without too much effort. Similar things are known in OTL, after all.

Still, Aururia is never going to be a "great unknown land" in the same way that the interior of the Americas were. The first travelogues appear within a handful of years of first contact, and there are even Aururians in contact with European colonies outside of Aururia within a generation. These Aururian contacts will continue, in some form, thereafter.

So while popular culture may well blur things a lot, any decently well-read European, or student of "oriental studies", will be aware of the distinction between the major cultures.

A collection of folklore could be one way, we did see some collection of them in the early 17th century.

So here we could some different aspect on popular creates and some less well known becoming popular.

These look quite promising. I especially like the potential of the nixie to become a "deal with the devil" motif, huldra for their potential for both attractiveness and nastiness, and sea munks for their oddity.

Hmm. It could be kind of amusing to see trolls take up the cultural role in LoRaG that elves have in OTL. One more thing to confuse the unwary interdimensional traveler... :D

Trolls as stylish but vicious at heart? (A lot like cats, really.) Tempting...

I would kill to read stories based on these. So refreshing.

Writing a whole story along those lines is probably more than I'd be able to focus on, but some excerpts may be possible.

Settling the OTL Canadian Prairies from the east requires a railroad, really. Sure, there were a few Ontarians who came west before that, but not very many.

And the cost of building a RR across the Canadian Shield north of Lake Superior is such that it will ONLY happen as a political move if Rupertsland and Ontario (or whatever they're called iOTL) are part of the same political entity.

Would an alternative be getting there via the Great Lakes, culminating in Lake Superior, and then travelling west from there (RR or otherwise)? Or alternatively, a railroad via Michigan's Upper Peninsula and northwest from there, rather than north of Lake Superior?

In addition to GETTING there, you'd like to be able to ship produce (wheat, whatever) to markets. It's really tough shipping it east, again before a RR.

Sans a direct railroad, something like wheat would presumably be uneconomical to export out. Other commodities may be able to survive the trip of shipping and portage, though (Mesabi iron ore, for instance).

As for getting people south from Hudson's Bay. Good luck with that.

True; it would be quite a walk. :D

OTL French kings asserted lots of power, but couldn't actually wield it. The same was true in most European countries; there was a profusion of local and regional authorities and laws which the crown couldn't just revoke at will.

Kings who tried got into trouble. The smarter ones didn't press their luck.

Quite true that the rhetoric wouldn't always match the reality. Even kings who proclaimed themselves as absolute monarchs couldn't get away with everything they wanted. (Not even the Sun King, OTL.) While not accepting any de jure limits on their power, a monarch who wanted to stay in power knew what the de facto limits were.

Still, there was a gradual trend of political centralisation in France even before Louis XIV, and I would expect that trend to continue. Sure, a weak monarch wouldn't get away with as much, but every strong monarch would accelerate the centralisation trend.

Without triggering a massive uprising? The crown would have to be very strong already to confiscate most of the wealth of the nation's ruling class without a fight.

The Great Reduction happened in OTL (in 1680). What it entailed was the Swedish crown reclaiming lands which had been "donated" to the nobility, mostly since the 1630s, to pay for Sweden's wars. It had a considerable amount of popular support, since the large aristocratic families were seen as too powerful.

The ATL Great Reduction is in fact smaller than the OTL one, since not as much land had to be sold to pay for Sweden's wars in the first place. (The monarchy has more lands with personal rule.)

The Swedish crown gets away with the *Great Reduction precisely because it is already more powerful than OTL, holding wealthy lands through its personal rule (most notably in Silesia), and because at this point the Swedish legislature (Riksdag of the Estates) still has some power. The Riksdag would become more ineffectual during the early eighteenth century.

ISTM that this narrative, plausible as it sounds, lacks causation. It's entirely plausible that the Aururian impact shifts the political development of Europe toward more absolute monarchy. But there's no explanation of how it does so.

The underlying causation isn't explicit in this article because it's something which ATL people usually see as a given.

What happened was that the Aururian plagues exacerbated a trend which was seen in much of seventeenth-century northern Europe in OTL. Population reductions led to an expansion of noble power at the expense of the peasantry, and a simultaneous expansion of power of the state at the expense of the nobility, seeking to turn them (in effect) into large landowning capitalists rather than feudal lords.

The nobility often accepted the increase in monarchical power for a time, since the aristocracy were also gaining power over the peasantry. Of course, after a time there would inevitably be clashes between monarchy and nobility. Sometimes the monarchy won (e.g. Denmark) while in other cases it lost (e.g. Poland).

In OTL, this trend showed up in a number of countries (e.g. much of Germany, Russia, Denmark) because of the population reduction caused by the seventeenth-century wars. ITTL, the broader population reduction of the Aururian plagues combines with the still-serious Twenty Years' War to create an earlier and broader trend across much more of Europe.

This leads to a gradual push toward absolute monarchy in large parts of Europe, though not quite every state. The Austrian Habsburgs, for instance, don't turn into absolute monarchs, even notionally. The Dutch Republic continues throughout this period, too.

And an English monarch, explicitly claiming and holding absolute power? Abolishing Parliament? Very tricky.

Tricky, although the Stuarts had been trying to introduce the divine right of kings since James I. This was the culmination of that trend. Getting it adopted would, of course, require winning a civil war.

And, strictly speaking, the English monarchy has been granted the right to raise taxation without needing Parliament's consent. Parliament had not become a permanent institution by this period, since it was called when needed and subject to dissolution by the monarch at any time.

Also, at the risk of getting ahead of the tale, the Absolutist period in *England is largely the personal accomplishment of James II, who had exceptional personal abilities and the fortunate starting position (i.e. his father winning the *English Civil War) to make absolute monarchy work, to a reasonable standard. While he exercised absolute power, he did so in a way which kept opposition divided, and which didn't raise too much popular discontent, e.g. the foreign wars he pursued (and raised funds for) were popular ones. After his death, his successors were lesser men...

The power of the crown might be sustained through royal weakness by an inner council of hard men - but then the king himself isn't really absolute anymore, is he?

There have been very few absolute autocracies in history, and even fewer have survived their founders. Look at the USSR after Stalin.

Certainly, not every state in *Europe which calls itself an absolute monarchy is so in practice. That was even arguably the case in most absolute monarchies in OTL, where there were still constraints on the monarch's power (aristocrats, clergy, and/or others).

That said, the trend is still to create an aristocracy which are bureacratic landowners rather than feudal lords with the ability to revolt against the crown. After absolutism is officially proclaimed in any given state, where a monarch is young, feckless or otherwise weak, the trend will broadly be for an éminence grise (or several) to wield true power rather than to explicitly revoke absolutism.

Until the whole institution of absolutism is challenged, of course.

It did in OTL, in 1680. That said, it was done with the support of a large parts of the Riksdag of the Estates (a Riksdag that had *not* been emasculated into a simple rubber-stamp) there, including parts of the (lower) nobility.

In ATL Sweden, the Riksdag had not yet been emasculated by 1675, though the greater personal estates of the Swedish monarchy meant that the kings did not need to rely on it as much. The popular support for the Great Reduction was still mostly there ATL.
 
Writing a whole story along those lines is probably more than I'd be able to focus on, but some excerpts may be possible.

Actually, when I said that I'd like to read those kind of stories, it was more of a longing sigh, as in "Oh, how I wish those kinds of stories existed in OTL, but, like so many other things, the winds of time have swept aside such an opportunity." I didn't mean it as an actual request.

However, if (and ONLY if) you feel like you're up to writing at least a few excerpts, then I most certainly would not object, as long as it does not shift focus away from the actual timeline.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
However, if (and ONLY if) you feel like you're up to writing at least a few excerpts, then I most certainly would not object, as long as it does not shift focus away from the actual timeline.
I doubt it would,I could see it being along the lines of the Mighty Mouse episode he described a few Christmases ago
 
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