Keynes' Cruisers

Status
Not open for further replies.
Story 0393
November 16, 1940 near Dangyang, China

Half a dozen infantrymen were on patrol. The foreigners looked around the land carefully as they knew it was a hostile land with a hostile people. Their officers had been seen huddling in leadership groups and the staff had been preparing for something big. The privates and the single corporal were not told what to do. They were merely told to patrol five kilometers from the base camp towards the road junction where another regiment of the Imperial Japanese Army had their base camp. Once they reached the junction, they were to return. Any contact was to be suppressed with utmost ferocity.

As they walked carefully through the fields and the peasants who worked the paddies fled the heavily armed men, they placed each foot delicately, trying to feel a pressure plate before detonating it or a punji stick before impaling themselves. They walked for an hour.

Unknown to them but not unsurprisingly, they were being watched. It was not just the farmers watching, fearing that the barbarians would take their winter food or rape their daughters and wives. No, a squad of the national army watched. They had infiltrated forward into the gap between the lines, guided by guerillas who had made that trip numerous times. Four men were watching the patrol as another two men were preparing to run back to the main line of resistance further to the west. They were expendable too but they wanted to live so they took care picking their way through the countryside.

As the Japanese patrol came to the edge of a paddy next to the main road, a hellacious explosion roared. The last private in the line was lazy. After 10,000 steps that day, he took his last step without enough care. He pressed down on a pressure plate with just a few ounces too much pressure and a twelve pound block of dynamite detonated, spraying nails and glass in an arc. The private died almost instantly, two of his squad mates would bleed to death before aid could arrive from the nearest Japanese camp. Two more men would be in the hospital for a week while the corporal had merely been scratched by the shrapnel.

Later that night, a dozen peasants were beheaded in retaliation for the village not informing their conquerors of the land mine.
 
November 15, 1940, West of Strasbourg

By the time Anna Marie arrived back at the family farm, she knew that she would visit the good doctor tomorrow as her elbow hurt from milking all of the cows. There were fewer cows this year than normal and she had never had milkmaid’s elbow but odder things had happened to seemingly healthy young women before.

Why does this paragraph sound ominous?
 
Many years ago, while on liberty in Halifax, I (regretfully, and shamefully) declined to take the opportunity to go aboard HMCS Sackville. (I DID get to the Canadian Maritime Museum, which was wonderful!) succumbing to the siren call of Daemon Rhum and the lovely vixens of Canada instead. I recall part of my reasoning at the time, being that I already had a good idea of life aboard a small ship (mine was 270', and arguably a less seaworthy design, but that's for another thread) so I'd pass on it for the time being. Small ships are a very hard life. There is a WORLD of difference in a small combatant and something even the size of a DD. I can fully understand the crews hating them, at the same time, the majority of men manning those ships were not born mariners, but former farmers and clerks with no seagoing experience at all. Ergo, I am inclined to discount a lot of the grumbling.
Whatever the faults of these ships, they were capable of what was being asked of them. They were available escorts that could be built to civilian standards in smaller yards, and the USN seriously screwed the pooch by not having them or some type close to them built in one of the many Great Lakes yards where they could have been pumped out in appreciable numbers from early on. Are they as capable as the Secretaries? No. But as Stalin once said, "Quantity has a quality all of its own". When you compare the tonnage of the two (2250 to 950) it's over two to one. Twice as many Flowers can be built (realizing that armament and machinery would need to be doubled) as Secretaries. For slow convoys, a pair of Flowers is a lot better than one or no Secretaries. Were it me, I'd try and build both, utilizing small yards not otherwise capable of a regular warship for the Flowers while those a bit more technically capable can build the Secretaries.

That is pretty much my take on the situation that will be facing the U.S. Navy when the U.S. enters the war in this ATL. Better to crash build cheaper and more numerous escorts even though they are less capable. It worked for the RN and RCN in a fashion. A stop gap is better then nothing. However in festers ATL maybe he will have the Americans build a sufficient number of more capable ASW escorts. The idea is to have something in service in adequate numbers before January 1942 to try to reduce the carnage of Drumbeat.
 
Last edited:

Driftless

Donor
During WW1 & WW2, several Great Lakes shipyards converted their operations to building: sub chasers, mine layers, mine sweepers, fleet submarines, destroyer escorts, landing craft, etc. The Defoe Shipbuilding Company(Bay City, Michigan_) employed a novel upside-down roll-over method for building hulls in order to speed the welding process.

Once they were up to speed, they kept busy.
 
If you have a proven austere Treasury class escort...you have a design that shipyards can put out in mass quantity starting in 1941...you wouldn't have to build anywhere near as many Destroyer Escorts...

BTW, I do like the idea of keeping the ability to tow...that could prove very handy, who knows you might be able to send one with Edward Ellsberg to Massawa in 1942...

fester, as you are tweaking OTL, what about giving a bit of a push to rotary wing development? Anyway to have a H-5 by 1944?
 
MaineMem-029b.jpg


Gun outside of UT
 
Since it is November 1940, the lend lease act has not yet been enacted. Any change in USN ship construction at this time in favor of something like the Flower class would require a major change in doctrine. The USN is short of destroyers for its own use, having flush deck four stackers in service and in need of replacement. IMHO the only thing that gets a "corvette" under construction in US yards is a LL based order. The two ocean navy simply has no vision of this need.

BTW, didn't the British place an early LL order for Frigates (River class)? Did they in fact request the US to build smaller escorts?
 
The French possessions in the western hemisphere may be under Vichy control or not, but nothing will happen there the USA does not approve of and sooner or later either the USA or the Free French will be in charge.
 
The French possessions in the western hemisphere may be under Vichy control or not, but nothing will happen there the USA does not approve of and sooner or later either the USA or the Free French will be in charge.

I've been doing a lot of reading on this issue and there were a lot of interesting negotiations between Vice Admiral Robert (the senior French official in Martinique) and USN officers regarding the disposition of French naval assets and the delivery of food and supplies from the US to the French colonies to help sustain them and how much the French paid for that.
 
No, most of the french colonial empire is under Vichy control. Free France just controls few parts (if it's the same as IOTL at this date : New-Caledonia, French Polynesia and French Equatorial Africa except Gabon where there is fighting between the two France).

I think Fester consider that, because of smoother Mers El Kebir incident, the UK has still partially access to Vichy colonial exports (but not from Mediterranean ports). For now, it's a win-win situation for Vichy (who can still exist as more than just a Nazi puppet for now) and the UK.

But this situation can't continue for ever. There is just too many reasons for this to get sideways. Just a few examples I come up with this morning :
  • It won't be long before the Germans and the Italians use this breach in the British blocus using the hard currency win by Vichy (Vichy pays daily occupation's fees to the Germans).
  • The Vichy held colonies can be use by the Axis and the Allies needs to secure their rear (Indochina is already partly in Japan control). IOTL Syria was used to support the Iraqi rebellion, Tunisia served as a rear area for the Axis in North Africa (as a way to bypass Malta) before being occupy by the Axis, and the UK feared that Madagascar can be used as a Japan base in the India Ocean.
  • There is a french civil war and the UK supports the Free French. The fighting in Gabon can escalade or you can have an other rebellion in Vichy held colonies where the FF are able to intervene and escalade the conflict.
To resume my mind, the UK trade (indirectly) with Vichy and won't support attacks on their colonies as long it fits them. For now, the UK concentrate their forces in Egypt to fight the Italians, but if and when they will think it better for them to take some Vichy colonies (and if they have spare forces and shipping to do so), they will do it.

P.S. : sorry about my bad english.

So France's position is even more ambiguous than OTL, which is working to Britain's advantage. I'd imagine details on the diplomatic gymnastics would make for an interesting read. :-D
 
November 15, 1940, West of Strasbourg

Anna Marie

As part of the Germanification of the newly reacquired western provinces (Alsace was now part of Saar-Palatinate, Lorraine Baden), French was removed from school curriculums, and was not taught even as a foreign language, the options being English, Spanish or Italian. In the rest of the Reich, French was actually the most popular choice.

There was some ethnic cleansing, with 22k French and 6.5k German Jews expelled to rump France, as well as c105k others, mainly middle class professionals (the SS opposed this, on the grounds that this influx of 'Germanic' blood would strengthen France).

An absurd linguistic campaign: names had to be Germanised, so Anna Marie might have to be renamed, although French surnames were still permitted elsewhere in the Reich. Anti-Catholic campaigns - 75% of Alsations followed Rome - also intensified. Very little of this stuck, of course, but it must have been extremely demoralising.
 
Last edited:
That is pretty much my take on the situation that will be facing the U.S. Navy when the U.S. enters the war in this ATL. Better to crash build cheaper and more numerous escorts even though they are less capable. It worked for the RN and RCN in a fashion. A stop gap is better then nothing. However in festers ATL maybe he will have the Americans build a sufficient number of more capable ASW escorts. The idea is to have something in service in adequate numbers before January 1942 to try to reduce the carnage of Drumbeat.

The Flowers had their flaws, and certainly weren't designed as deep ocean escorts but they kept Britain alive until more suitable ships were able to take the strain. They should have the same recognition that the Spitfire and Lancasters do. In my opinion they deserve it more, but probably because they weren't seen as glamorous they are largely forgotten.
 
No, most of the french colonial empire is under Vichy control. Free France just controls few parts (if it's the same as IOTL at this date : New-Caledonia, French Polynesia and French Equatorial Africa except Gabon where there is fighting between the two France).

I think Fester consider that, because of smoother Mers El Kebir incident, the UK has still partially access to Vichy colonial exports (but not from Mediterranean ports). For now, it's a win-win situation for Vichy (who can still exist as more than just a Nazi puppet for now) and the UK.

But this situation can't continue for ever. There is just too many reasons for this to get sideways. Just a few examples I come up with this morning :
  • It won't be long before the Germans and the Italians use this breach in the British blocus using the hard currency win by Vichy (Vichy pays daily occupation's fees to the Germans).
  • The Vichy held colonies can be use by the Axis and the Allies needs to secure their rear (Indochina is already partly in Japan control). IOTL Syria was used to support the Iraqi rebellion, Tunisia served as a rear area for the Axis in North Africa (as a way to bypass Malta) before being occupy by the Axis, and the UK feared that Madagascar can be used as a Japan base in the India Ocean.
  • There is a french civil war and the UK supports the Free French. The fighting in Gabon can escalade or you can have an other rebellion in Vichy held colonies where the FF are able to intervene and escalade the conflict.
To resume my mind, the UK trade (indirectly) with Vichy and won't support attacks on their colonies as long it fits them. For now, the UK concentrate their forces in Egypt to fight the Italians, but if and when they will think it better for them to take some Vichy colonies (and if they have spare forces and shipping to do so), they will do it.

P.S. : sorry about my bad english.

A lot depends on Operation Compass. If O Connor reaches Tripoli or better yet the Tunisian border things will be radically different. He stands a fair chance as with the increased losses in the Battle of France and Battle of Britain German involvement in North Africa should be minimal. How do the French colonial authorities respond to a victorious British Army on their border? Do they let them in? The Italians will demand that they be allowed to build up an army to reclaim Libya, do they allow them to land? If they don't then Vichy France will likely be occupied. What does the French empire do then? Do they defect to the Free French or stay loyal? With British forces defeating the Axis forces in North Africa does the Iraqi rebellion take place, and if it does do the authorities in Syria allow the Germans and Italians to use Syria as a base from which to support the revolt?
 
I wonder with the RN flying Martlets successfuly for a year if Grumman could be persuaded to sell a licence to the Canadians to build them instead of the Hurricane?
 

Driftless

Donor
I wonder with the RN flying Martlets successfuly for a year if Grumman could be persuaded to sell a licence to the Canadians to build them instead of the Hurricane?

GM was going to make Wildcats, and the TBM Avenger was made by them; so there's precedent there for an alternative manufacturers.
 
It seems to me like a good deal for all concerned.

Grumman still makes money from the Martlet without the expense of having to actually build them.
The Canadians get jobs and profits by building the Martlets.
The UK can pay the Canadians in Stirling for the aircraft, which in addition to its naval role can be used by the RAF in the various hot and dusty or humid parts of the world where liquid cooled engines might struggle.
The FAA can have the aircraft built to better match it's own needs.
The US navy avoids having American built carrier fighters it needs being diverted to other countries.
Another benefit for the Fleet Air Arm is that by having its aircraft built in Canada the RAF can't claim they're reducing the supply of badly needed aircraft for the RAF.
 
Last edited:
I wonder with the RN flying Martlets successfuly for a year if Grumman could be persuaded to sell a licence to the Canadians to build them instead of the Hurricane?

How does the performance compare anyway?

I am assuming the Martlet is superior or the suggestion would not be made. Also how does cost compare, as well as ego factors of choosing a foreign design for the RAF rather than just the Fleet Air Arm?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top