Keynes' Cruisers

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Astrodragon

One of the reasons Courageous was sunk by a U-boat was that the KM had broken the British codes, and so had a fair idea of where she would be.
Without that, she possibly lives.

As for 'sweeping in front of a force', that isn't a WW2 doctrine for the very good reason it doesn't work with the available tech.
First the sweeping force has to be faster than the convoy. As WW2 sonar was pretty much limited to 18 kt, that makes a slow convoy.
Second the sonar available had a reliable range of 1-2 miles, 1 mile is dependable, 2 depends so much on the conditions.
Work out how many ships you need to sweep.

Now later on, it was sort of done (but with a lot of differences)
The sweeping was usually either by plane (which had the speed to check and re-check a wider area), or the escort doing a sprint and search - later on, doing a sprint and drift while listening.
 

pjmidd

Astrodragon said:
As for 'sweeping in front of a force', that isn't a WW2 doctrine for the very good reason it doesn't work with the available tech.
First the sweeping force has to be faster than the convoy. As WW2 sonar was pretty much limited to 18 kt, that makes a slow convoy.
Second the sonar available had a reliable range of 1-2 miles, 1 mile is dependable, 2 depends so much on the conditions.
Work out how many ships you need to sweep.

Now later on, it was sort of done (but with a lot of differences)
The sweeping was usually either by plane (which had the speed to check and re-check a wider area), or the escort doing a sprint and search - later on, doing a sprint and drift while listening.
Click to expand...
Was thinking more in this case of the routine ASW sweeps/patrols that were done to try and catch submarines transiting to base/operations being used to clear the way by coordinating the timing more than the fleet escorts themselves.
 
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    • fester


    December 15, 1941 Norfolk

    The target was covered in smoke. No one could see the prize through the thick cigar and cigarette smoke. The air was becoming uncomfortably humid as long sticks moved counters around the map. Sweat soaked through armpits as the umpires eliminated squadrons and ships. Victories were scored and threats emerged.

    An hour later, the first scenario was completed. Every man broke for lunch and small clusters broke apart. Squadron commanders talked with landing signal officers to see what else could be done. Radar operators worked with the fighter jocks as the last German counter-attack surprised them and Constellation was deemed a flaming wreck. Destroyer skippers talked with each other while the battleship commander had a long discussion with the oiler captains.

    After lunch, Admiral Hewitt addressed the room.

    “Welcome back, the first run was a modest success, one battlecruiser in exchange for a single carrier. We’ve reset the scenario so everyone who is dead is now alive again. If Blue Force wants to make changes, they may do so. We have two more rounds this afternoon, and another three tomorrow, so let’s see if we can make Bathhouse work. If nothing else, this is a good exercise in allied cooperation, so it is not a complete waste of food and time.”
     
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    • Story 0961
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    • fester

    December 15, 1941 Over the Celtic Sea

    The pilot flexed his fingers. The navigator/bombardier/observer/tea distributor cracked his neck and then resumed his virgil looking out the window. The radio operator/gunner shuffled his feet as he scanned his sector. Three men had been flying together in the Coastal Command light patrol squadrons for months now. They were a well trained crew who had yet to actually see a German submarine. Another three missions and the pilot would be pulled back to an OCU, another four missions and the gunner was scheduled to go on leave before reporting to an evaluation and test squadron, another seven missions before the navigator could be posted to Coastal Command's staff.

    They flew for another two hours and much like every other mission, they saw nothing that was a threat. As they turned for home, each man shook their head at yet another good day of not being shot at.

    Seventeen hundred feet below them, a U-boat continued the slow passage underwater towards the sea lanes that kept Britain alive.
     
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    • Story 0962
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    • fester

    December 15, 1941 Singapore

    Half a dozen Hurricanes were flying lazy circles over the fleet. A pair of Vildebeest bombers looked for submarines. Prince of Wales, Mauritius, Kenya, Liverpool, Norfolk, and Boise, steamed in three columns outside of the crowded harbor. The battleship and Liverpool were in the central column while the Americans steamed to her port and the Crown Colony cruisers steamed on her starboard side. Seven destroyers prowled for threats. Force Z was on its way to Surabaya where the both Crown Colony cruisers and the American refugees from the Asiatic Fleet could rendezvous with significant elements of the Royal Australian Navy that had moved north to reinforce the Dutch. Prince of Wales and Liverpool along with three destroyers were due to steam to Colombo to rendezvous with Ark Royal.

    At the Johor docks, a reconstituted Force Y was assembled. Marblehead would lead Destroyer Division 58. They would be responsible for patrolling the eastern coast of Malaya south of Kuantan. Dragon and three destroyers were responsible for the western coast all the way from Singapore to Rangoon. The Americans could move to the west coast if needed, but they also had permission to withdraw to Sumatra or Java as the recently promoted Rear Admiral Rooks saw fit.
     
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    • Winestu

    Time for my two cents regarding Bathhouse. Go after the port that supports the most U-boats.

    Go after the U-boat pens & the U-boats in them (I’m thinking torpedo bombers here). Even if the torpedo misses The sub in the pen, the concussion will heavily damage/cripple the subs. Don’t bother bombing the pens themselves, that’s a waste of effort. Send the bombers against repair facilities and the smaller ships in port. Only attack the BC’s if you don’t have any other targets.

    The night before the main raid have Bomber Command attack the harbor area. Any damage they do the better & hopefully they’ll knock out some of the defenses (here I’m just hoping for lucky hits on AA pieces or search lights & stuff like that).

    After the raid have the RAF lay aerial mines outside the harbor, hopefully shutting it down for awhile.
     

    Oldbill

    I was thinking laying mines both inside and outside the harbor, immediately after the dive bombers and TB's get done. If the RAF can lay on a goodly sized nighttime bombing raid just after the naval raiders go home, then can also lay mines and it wont be as noticeable.
     

    Crowbar Six

    If they can coordinate the two forces then it makes sense for the RAF to do some serious gardening of the approaches to Brest to keep the Germans bottled up.
     

    Astrodragon

    I'm trying to remember if Coastal Command actually ever used Blenheims. I don't think they did.
    Poor visibility and too low a bomb load.
     

    mudhead

    Astrodragon said:
    I'm trying to remember if Coastal Command actually ever used Blenheims. I don't think they did.
    Poor visibility and too low a bomb load.
    Click to expand...

    Killer in said:
    I think some were used as they were handed down from Bomber Command
    Click to expand...

    Found this at historyofwar.org
    Coastal Command

    Coastal Command did not receive the Blenheim until after the outbreak of war. In October 1939 four trade protection squadrons were formed. Another four transferred from Fighter Command in 1940. A Blenheim of No. 82 Squadron was the first British aircraft to sink a U-boat, sinking U.31 on 11 March 1940 in the Schillig Roads.

    Four Coastal Command squadrons were eventually equipped with the Blenheim Mk IVF (Nos. 235, 236, 248 and 254), along with two R.C.A.F squadrons. No. 254, based at St. Eval in Cornwall, concentrated on anti-submarine warfare, but the remaining squadrons carried out a wide range of duties, including acting guard over downed Allied aircrews while rescue craft arrived, escorting shipping and attacks on German maritime patrol aircraft, which the Mk IVF was actually capable of catching and shooting down.

    The Blenheim was phased out by Coastal Command in early 1942, in favour of newer aircraft, including the Beaufighter and the Mosquito.
    Click to expand...
     

    Winestu

    My thought was something like have three torpedo bombers lined up with each sub berth. If Coastal Command add some fire power to the attack then that’s great. Coordination will be a bear so make sure they’re assigned alternative targets. If not maybe a combined Bomber & Coastal Command mine laying operation could take place.
     

    jsb

    Winestu said:
    My thought was something like have three torpedo bombers lined up with each sub berth.
    Click to expand...
    The problem is this is the Atlantic wall not PH or Taranto thinking they are safe. Are we sure that its doesn't have layers of ant torpedo nets to stop bombers or frogmen or even RN destroyers and lots of surrounding light/heavy AA sited so you have to fly over them and smoke generators and radars.....
     

    Winestu

    Torpedo nets may work if they’re in front of the openings to the pens. If they’re deployed like they were at Taranto then it won’t affect the attack much IMHO.
    As far as the Atlantic Wall goes it really didn’t exist at this time. Though I’m sure there were plenty of AA and some Coastal Arty. I’m just not sure how much.
     
    Rorke

    Rorke

    Yes. I just caught up. I have a question; will the soldiers in the Philippines suffer the same agonizing fate they suffered OTL?
     
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