- Status
I wonder if they could go through the flight deck and cause problems in the hanger spaces? A golden BB would be causing fuel spillage from a plane that is ignited. Unlikely and even Japanese Damage Control should cope with it. But every little helps and one carrier's strike being delayed helps the PH defenders.
On a more diplomatic note.... it seems that like IOTL the Japanese never sent their 14 part ceasing of negotiations message in time to Washington before Pearl Harbour was attacked. It wasn't even a DoW, just a ceasing of negotiations message and nothing about war.
Here... the Japanese are attacking Pearl and all the people there are, legally speaking under the rules of war, non combatants. Because no DoW was ever written and sent to Washington, and legally, Japan and America had no state of war between them when Pearl Harbour was attacked.
Here... the Japanese are attacking Pearl and all the people there are, legally speaking under the rules of war, non combatants. Because no DoW was ever written and sent to Washington, and legally, Japan and America had no state of war between them when Pearl Harbour was attacked.
The same of course would be true for the UK and Dominions, and the DEI. I think even OTL there was no DOW on Britain.
It could go the other way however - a concrete bomb hitting the deck and causing minor damage, which through damage control foul-ups nearly leads to the ship being lost. The IJN suddenly starts taking damage control seriously, with very nasty effects for everyone else down the line...I wonder if they could go through the flight deck and cause problems in the hanger spaces? A golden BB would be causing fuel spillage from a plane that is ignited. Unlikely and even Japanese Damage Control should cope with it. But every little helps and one carrier's strike being delayed helps the PH defenders.
When the Japanese were invading the Philippines, Hong Komg and Malaya, yeah no DoW from Japan.
The DoW against the US and UK only came AFTER they landed troops in Malaya and attacked Pearl.
The DoW from Japan was only published in Japanese newspapers after the deed was done.
Driftless
Donor
I wonder if they could go through the flight deck and cause problems in the hanger spaces? A golden BB would be causing fuel spillage from a plane that is ignited. Unlikely and even Japanese Damage Control should cope with it. But every little helps and one carrier's strike being delayed helps the PH defenders.
Another possibility: The Japanese look at the nice round divot in the flight deck and the hanger deck, and figure that American dive bombing capability is pitiful....
Maybe so - though IF the initial Japanese successes are reduced significantly it may not matter much that they improve damage control later.
Or they have Argentine-like capability for fusing bombs, if the concrete is not visible. And if they see concrete bombs are they more likely to think 'practice bomb used in desperation' or 'the US is not ready for war = Paper Tiger'??Another possibility: The Japanese look at the nice round divot in the flight deck and the hanger deck, and figure that American dive bombing capability is pitiful....
The bombers can do the whole Samar Battle Bluff.
Pretend they attack the ships and break off.
An apocryphal tale that I heard when I got to 173rd Airborne in 1966 was that one of the rifle companies in 173rd Airborne came under a probing attack at dusk. Helicopters from the Casper platoon (generally carried supplies but also did insertions) were bringing in rations, ammunition, etc and were told about the incoming fire and were able to see the gunflashes from both US and VC infantry. One crew decided to help but decided that the adversaries were to close to engage with the door guns. So they tore C-ration cases and dropped a number of C-ration cans on the VC firing line. The VC thought these were bomblets and fled.Another possibility: The Japanese look at the nice round divot in the flight deck and the hanger deck, and figure that American dive bombing capability is pitiful....
I believe Field Marshall Slim mentioned dropping case of supplies to beleagured Commonwealth Forces in India and Burma. He worried about a commanding officer having to a letter of regret to family to inform them that their son had been killed by a flying can of fruit.
Last edited:
Another possibility: The Japanese look at the nice round divot in the flight deck and the hanger deck, and figure that American dive bombing capability is pitiful....
This is much more likely.
Projectiles were commonly filled with sand. Not certain about bombs (I shot alot of projectiles, but never dropped any bombs, just recovered a couple) but according to this site http://www.nebraskaaircrash.com/practicebombs/mk15.html at least some were filled with sand. BTW, this is a hell of a good TL Fester, you've built the anticipation up wonderfully, and are now doling out the goodies. It's about as close to the feeling of a kid at Xmas as an old fart like me can get!
EDIT: Regardless of what the bomb is filled with, it WILL penetrate the flight deck. That means the flight deck is inoperative, or at the minimum operable at a much reduced capability, until it is repaired. Also, where it hits makes a difference. Aft, landings are harder. Forward, takeoffs. Elevator, bad juju. We also have to think of what the pilot is thinking as he makes his dive, is the plane already damaged, does he think he wont make it back to base, is he possibly wounded and dying? If so, what are the chances he just says "Fuck you" and doesn't even try to pull out of the dive?
EDIT: Regardless of what the bomb is filled with, it WILL penetrate the flight deck. That means the flight deck is inoperative, or at the minimum operable at a much reduced capability, until it is repaired. Also, where it hits makes a difference. Aft, landings are harder. Forward, takeoffs. Elevator, bad juju. We also have to think of what the pilot is thinking as he makes his dive, is the plane already damaged, does he think he wont make it back to base, is he possibly wounded and dying? If so, what are the chances he just says "Fuck you" and doesn't even try to pull out of the dive?
Last edited:
Possibly useful link for authors.
https://maritime.org/doc/ordnance/index.htm#toc
pertinent link:
https://maritime.org/doc/ordnance/pg439.htm
Anyone want to guess the effects of a 500 or 1000 lb practice bomb hitting a ship will be? Not as much as if filled with HE goodness (obviously) but for the poor guys on the receiving end, probably one of those "significant emotional events" that happen.
https://maritime.org/doc/ordnance/index.htm#toc
pertinent link:
https://maritime.org/doc/ordnance/pg439.htm
Anyone want to guess the effects of a 500 or 1000 lb practice bomb hitting a ship will be? Not as much as if filled with HE goodness (obviously) but for the poor guys on the receiving end, probably one of those "significant emotional events" that happen.
Is that a euphemism for 'life-ending event' or simply 'brown pants job'?? Or either depending on distance from impact.
Maybe both.Is that a euphemism for 'life-ending event' or simply 'brown pants job'?? Or either depending on distance from impact.
Lots of Japanese cursing in the sky though when that happens.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
https://www.wired.com/2009/09/leafl...mandos-search-for-safer-tech-missiles-anyone/
The U.S. Army killed an Iraqi soldier with a box of "surrender or die" leaflets in 2003, too.
Story 0889
December 7, 1941 12:30 PM Washington DC
The Japanese Ambassador and his aide walked out of the embassy and entered the late model Ford sedan. The driver pulled the car into traffic and expertly worked his way down hill. The ambassador and his aide had a 1:00 pm meeting scheduled with Secretary of State Hull and it would be quite improper to be too early or late by even a moment. He held the envelope with the formal message declaring a state of war existed between the Empire of Japan and the United States of America. Even as the message was to be delivered, the rest of the embassy staff was busy destroying all sensitive materials and transferring critical goods to friendly neutrals like Argentina.
The Japanese Ambassador and his aide walked out of the embassy and entered the late model Ford sedan. The driver pulled the car into traffic and expertly worked his way down hill. The ambassador and his aide had a 1:00 pm meeting scheduled with Secretary of State Hull and it would be quite improper to be too early or late by even a moment. He held the envelope with the formal message declaring a state of war existed between the Empire of Japan and the United States of America. Even as the message was to be delivered, the rest of the embassy staff was busy destroying all sensitive materials and transferring critical goods to friendly neutrals like Argentina.
The Japanese seemed to have gotten their DoW together.
But the Japanese air fleet was already intercepted over a hour before the meeting due to time zones.
- Status