Oh great let’s blame the krauts yet again for thisWell it all started with 99 balloons...
Oh great let’s blame the krauts yet again for thisWell it all started with 99 balloons...
My understanding is that some of the first ICBM’s may have had subsonic or low supersonic RV’s for at least some of their re entry.There are no subsonic ballistic missiles. Even antiques like Skean and FROG, or artillery rockets like the BM-21s, were supersonic. There were subsonic cruise missiles, like Gryphon or Shaddock, but they are a different matter.
I find that extraordinarily unlikely. Typical re-entry velocity is 7-9km/s and decelerating from that would require somehow shedding a vast amount of kinetic energy rather quickly without destroying the RV.My understanding is that some of the first ICBM’s may have had subsonic or low supersonic RV’s for at least some of their re entry.
I recall this topic was hashed out a while back on this board and there was a document discussing how some early RV’s had blunt shapes (maybe a different “Beta” ?) and used different techniques to avoid burn up during re entry ? (Heat sinks ?) I also recall coming across references to slow RV’s in some published works re early ABM efforts.I find that extraordinarily unlikely. Typical re-entry velocity is 7-9km/s and decelerating from that would require somehow shedding a vast amount of kinetic energy rather quickly without destroying the RV.
I refer you to the 1963 RAND compilation 'DATA FOR ICBM RE-ENTRY TRAJECTORIES' RM-3475-ARPA.
Yes, the RAND paper is intended as a basis for solving the ABM problem, but has no such references.I recall this topic was hashed out a while back on this board and there was a document discussing how some early RV’s had blunt shapes (maybe a different “Beta” ?) and used different techniques to avoid burn up during re entry ? (Heat sinks ?) I also recall coming across references to slow RV’s in some published works re early ABM efforts.
Cheers
I recall this topic was hashed out a while back on this board and there was a document discussing how some early RV’s had blunt shapes (maybe a different “Beta” ?) and used different techniques to avoid burn up during re entry ? (Heat sinks ?) I also recall coming across references to slow RV’s in some published works re early ABM efforts.
Cheers
My understanding is some of the RV’s that used heat sinks vs heat shields were much slower in the final stages of their flights than todays RV’s. I’ll leave it at that.Early RV's had "blunt body" (aka capsule with a broad base heat shield) shapes so they were slower than current "pointy end first" RV's. They were not however subsonic, still very much high supersonic.
Randy
From the wiki article on ICBM's:My understanding is some of the RV’s that used heat sinks vs heat shields were much slower in the final stages of their flights than todays RV’s. I’ll leave it at that.
There are so many alt histories on the Cold War going hot. However, they all seem to show Warsaw pact invading NATO. How would a NATO invasion of East Germany go? How far could NATO get before Warsaw Pact pushes them back? Will it go nuclear right away? Let’s say this occurs in 1985 and a hardliner is in power instead of Gorbachov.
Perhaps with limited objectives NATO might be able to seize some Warsaw Pact Territory before the Warsaw Pact can mass enough forces to stop them ?Okay to make it interesting as I've already posted I don't believe the West German army has the logistical capability to take part in operations other than home defence. Correspondingly I'm sceptical that the conscript Dutch or Belgium armies had this capability either. To even things out let's exclude non Soviet Warsaw Pact forces. That leaves from a standing start 2 2/3 British divisions, 5 2/3 US divisions & 1/3 Canadian for a total of 8 2/3 NATO divisions not trained for strategic offensive operations facing 26 Soviet Divisions. After some 7 -10 days you'll be up to 4 British, 10 US (less the missing National Guard round out brigade but possibly cancelled out by lighter forces like 9th Motorised Division being present) & 1/3 Canadian. Lets round that up to 15 NATO divisions facing 26 Soviet + reinforcements from the Baltic, Byelorussian & Kiev military districts. How do you see either of these 2 scenario's working out?
Perhaps with limited objectives NATO might be able to seize some Warsaw Pact Territory before the Warsaw Pact can mass enough forces to stop them ?
A limited advance might limit the impact of the logistical issues ?
The “Why would NATO do this” question seems very hard to answer But perhaps the Warsaw pact did something else that really annoys NATO and NATO decided to respond with a limited offensive (perhaps they want what they see as an inevitable war to start at a time of their choosing ?)
All of this seems very implausible to me but in my view doesn’t quite require ASB intervention ?
Does it matter when you're standing "In this dust that was a city"?Oh great let’s blame the krauts yet again for this
Wah the balloons stabbed me in the back…Oh great let’s blame the krauts yet again for this
This is what we're waiting forWah the balloons stabbed me in the back…
There has been a leak…
Which is one of the reasons why it wouldn't happen. There's also the lack of political unity (you need all members of NATO to agree to declare war/attack*), the standing armies not being big enough to attack in force, the need to get forces and materiel from the american continent. Al together this mean you're going to need months, probably years to prepare.Not very. Modern wars come down to planning and training and basically zero NATO war plans or training exercises were offensive.
I mean, not entirely. There were some plans to try and force open passages to Berlin in the event of a second Berlin blockade. The largest of these that I've heard of were a 1962 plan for a corps-size attack starting from either the Helmstedt or the Thuringwald area. Still, the conditions and goals of the plan were very specific and eschewed any idea of achieving anything more than reopening a land route to Berlin against anything more than limited Soviet resistance. These are pretty much the only examples of Western operational planning for any kind of offensive ground military action on East German soil I can find. Nothing else under any other scenario was ever planned for, best I can tell.Not very. Modern wars come down to planning and training and basically zero NATO war plans or training exercises were offensive.