How useful would supersonic fighters have been for Germany during WW2?

[PhilKearny]

Th Arado 234 seems to have been quite good as a recon plane.

Exactly. Still, it would've been untouchable at 600mph. Then again, look at all the problems that the B-47 Stratojet had to overcome. JATO for take off, parachute for landing, special tires to handle the weight & speed, huge workload for the pilot, etc. Still, the B-47 looked amazing.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Exactly. Still, it would been untouchable at 600mph. Then again, look at all the problems that the B-47 Stratojet had to overcome. JATO for take off, parachute for landing, special tires to handle the weight & speed, huge workload for the pilot, etc. Still, the B-47 looked amazing.

I usually prefer function over form, but I make an exception for the Starfighter where looks trump everything else. The B47 isn't quite to my taste but I can see why you're a fan.

 

[PhilKearny]

I usually prefer function over form, but I make an exception for the Starfighter where looks trump everything else. The B47 isn't quite to my taste but I can see why you're a fan.

Not so much a fan. More of someone who thinks that the plane must have looked like the future--and so did the F-104.

 

[Belisarius II]

Exactly. Still, it would've been untouchable at 600mph. Then again, look at all the problems that the B-47 Stratojet had to overcome. JATO for take off, parachute for landing, special tires to handle the weight & speed, huge workload for the pilot, etc. Still, the B-47 looked amazing.

For looks my Cold War favorite is The Avro Vulcan. A tailless, blended body strategic bomber that maneuvers like a fighter. The plane is just amazing with a cool factor off the charts. It was an aircraft way ahead of its time, with stealthy characteristics and a long service life from the mid 50's to the mid 80's. What a beauty.

Avro Vulcan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Owltiger]

One of the dumbest aircraft movies ever made is "Stealth" A USN pilot dives straight down on a building with a deep bunker in it. He reaches I think over Mach 3 because he wants to have the kinetic energy to destroy the bunker. He starts his dive from 60,000 feet, and releases his load at some point, and manages to pullout, and almost scraps the ground. Thank God for bad script writing, the hero lives. No one in the real world would.

Although not really in the scope of the conversation, the myth of supersonic divebombing even shows up in reasonably accurate war games. Watching, in War Thunder, a fully loaded A-10a or F-5 trying to dive on a tank is fun to watch and an easy kill - for the tank it's attacking as they NEVER pull out of their dives. Even in a game kinetic energy will kill you.

 

[Belisarius II]

Although not really in the scope of the conversation, the myth of supersonic divebombing even shows up in reasonably accurate war games. Watching, in War Thunder, a fully loaded A-10a or F-5 trying to dive on a tank is fun to watch and an easy kill - for the tank it's attacking as they NEVER pull out of their dives. Even in a game kinetic energy will kill you.

I'd hate to see an A-10 go into a supersonic dive and watch its wings come off. Can you kill a tank in the game by crashing your plane into it? Not even the Japanese tried that. It reminds me of the story of two women talking about how one of them had a fear of flying. The woman with the phobia said she always traveled across the country by train. The other woman said, "Did you hear about the plane crash the other day?" The other woman replied, "no." Her friend said, "It fell on a train."

 

[Owltiger]

I'd hate to see an A-10 go into a supersonic dive and watch its wings come off. Can you kill a tank in the game by crashing your plane into it? Not even the Japanese tried that. It reminds me of the story of two women talking about how one of them had a fear of flying. The woman with the phobia said she always traveled across the country by train. The other woman said, "Did you hear about the plane crash the other day?" The other woman replied, "no." Her friend said, "It fell on a train."

Actually, in game unless the plane has bombs on board it won't kill the tank. On the other hand if the plane hits the tank it will die and the tank will survive. My jokes always revolve around, "Why jump out of a perfectly good airplane?" Because I've never seen one...

 

[Aloha]

Assuming they could find enough Chaos Emeralds to create multiple Super Sonics, I imagine they would be very useful for Germany indeed.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Given Germany's jet engines, you'd likely need about 4 or 6 of them to get a fighter supersonic.
Given the extra stress on the engines at higher speeds, and given the abysmally short lifespans of those engines, I would image that you'd get an engine blowing up every 2 or 3 flights.....

Supersonic flight. In a plane not designed for it. With the attendant stability issues. And an outboard engine blows.....

One of the major issues with getting ‘air breathing’ jet engines to work at supersonic speeds aside from having the power and reliability to get there (and then stay there) is that you cannot have supersonic airflow entering the compressor stages.

It has to be subsonic which involves a lot of clever jiggery pokery going on in the air intakes to slow the airflow before it reaches the compressors

In early supersonic jets this was achieved using a conical inlet which diffused the airflow and slowed it enough to ensure that the airflow entered the compressor stage at subsonic speeds.

Again this and the later better methods took time, treasure and sadly too many lives to reach and was certainly not achievable during the short time the NAZIs stained the earth.

 

[misterwibble]

A question. If Germany built 1400 Me262s and only a maximum of 300 saw combat does that represent a net gain for the allies?

What I'm getting at is all of the resources, materials, time, money and skilled labour that went into those jets that were never used. Would it have been better for the Germans to put those into conventional prop fighters? Basically while the 262s might nave been individually better, having more 109s or 190s for the same inputs could have meant higher allied losses.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

One of the major issues with getting ‘air breathing’ jet engines to work at supersonic speeds aside from having the power and reliability to get there (and then stay there) is that you cannot have supersonic airflow entering the compressor stages.

It has to be subsonic which involves a lot of clever jiggery pokery going on in the air intakes to slow the airflow before it reaches the compressors

In early supersonic jets this was achieved using a conical inlet which diffused the airflow and slowed it enough to ensure that the airflow entered the compressor stage at subsonic speeds.

Again this and the later better methods took time, treasure and sadly too many lives to reach and was certainly not achievable during the short time the NAZIs stained the earth.

From the top of my head they (Army I think) were experimenting with supersonic rings (and cones maybe?) to break the supersonic flow for artillery shells and ramjets. There was also some area rule experiments with the jet engine housing by Junkers to increase the Mach number, I believe it was regarding the Arado 234 and Ju 287?

A question. If Germany built 1400 Me262s and only a maximum of 300 saw combat does that represent a net gain for the allies?

What I'm getting at is all of the resources, materials, time, money and skilled labour that went into those jets that were never used. Would it have been better for the Germans to put those into conventional prop fighters? Basically while the 262s might nave been individually better, having more 109s or 190s for the same inputs could have meant higher allied losses.

I don't think so, the FW 190D-9 to 13 and Bf 109 K-4s built (thousands) only had, like in the Me 262 case, only a few hundreds operational, in addition, those D-9+/K-4 planes would require higher octane fuel to perform to their best, something that the Me 262 did without.

It is the opposite really, more conventional planes = worse outcome. Also don't forget the lack of pilots...