How effective were SS divisions?

[deathscompanion1]

I was recently going through the book selection at a British Army barracks when I noticed there were no fewer than two books on the SS Das Reich division and another book on the Waffen SS. Irony aside I had a quick skim read and the first thing the author of one had to say was that the actual elite German divisions were rather different than not only the conscripted ones formed later in the war but any other formation in the Whermarcht with soldiers spending months on the frontline at a time on occasion with many not even having limited time in rear areas to rest. Another point was the disregard for casualties with a company reduced to 12 men launching a counter attack during the battle of the Bulge.

Basically the SS were fanatics and didn't operate under the same rules as everyone else. Fair enough but I have to wonder. What was the point of pushing men to such limits and using up formations until they were completely destroyed before rebuilding them? Was it cost effective or purely down to the SS being bat shit nuts?

 

[BeardedHoplite]

Granted I don't have a real desire to research the SS indepth, but from what I've gleaned from what I've read the divisions were highly inconsistent. Some were better than your average Heer division (The fact they got the primo equipment helps) while others, like the Direlwangers and some of the foreign brigades, were probably far worse than a normal division

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Manstein believe that the men used in the SS and the Luftwaffe field Divisions would have been better used in standard Heer formations.

He believed that the heer was robbed of good quality recruits.

A Private in an SS or LW Division was far more likely to become an NCO or even an officer in the Heer given their genreally higher quality and therefore were wasted in those 'Private army' formations.

He believed that both types of Formations lacked the Officer and NCO experiance and this led to higher casaulties than an equivilent Heer formation would have done in similiar situations - the Fanatism of the SS units early war actually making things worse as they would continue an attack beyond the point that it should have been abandoned and another way attempted

I always thought that it would have made more sense to grant an SS Title to a veteren Heer formation that had proven itself in battle - like the way a unit might be made a Guards unit in the Russian Army.

I.E. 21st Panzer 'SS' Division

But still remain part of the Heer command structure etc in all respects.

 

[deathscompanion1]

Manstein believe that the men used in the SS and the Luftwaffe field Divisions would have been better used in standard Heer formations.

He believed that the heer was robbed of good quality recruits.

A Private in an SS or LW Division was far more likely to become an NCO or even an officer in the Heer given their genreally higher quality and therefore were wasted in those 'Private army' formations.

He believed that both types of Formations lacked the Officer and NCO experiance and this led to higher casaulties than an equivilent Heer formation would have done in similiar situations - the Fanatism of the SS units early war actually making things worse as they would continue an attack beyond the point that it should have been abandoned and another way attempted

I always thought that it would have made more sense to grant an SS Title to a veteren Heer formation that had proven itself in battle - like the way a unit might be made a Guards unit in the Russian Army.

I.E. 21st Panzer 'SS' Division

But still remain part of the Heer command structure etc in all respects.

That makes sense militarily but doesn't do much good politically. I mean how can Himmler build an empire for himself if his private army isn't fighting a semi separate war?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

That makes sense militarily but doesn't do much good politically. I mean how can Himmler build an empire for himself if his private army isn't fighting a semi separate war?

Not just Himmler, Hitler wanted a private party army because he didn't trust the army. Now, the Luftwaffe army should have been put into the Heer and saved a lot of lives due to that manpower not being wasted relearning what the army already knew.

 

[Napoleon IV]

When talking about the Waffen-SS it is important to distinguish between the two types of divisions: German and foreign. With German units it really depended on the division. The best units, such as the Totenkopf or Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, were great in battle and feared by their opponents. The worst units, such as Sonderkommando Dirlewanger, were little more than a mob of criminals used to terrorize the local populace.

For foreign divisions it mainly depended on where they were from. Divisions from Western Europe and the Balkans tended to be very good. The men in these divisions were volunteers who were driven by a hatred of Communism and a love of Fascism. Some, such as the French SS division Charlemagne, were still fighting in Berlin. Those from the East however were generally very low quality. The men in these divisions were mostly Soviet POWs for whom the choice was either join or starve to death in a camp, mixed with local collaborators. They had little motivation, were riddled with dissent, and often either revolted or went on a campaign of wholesale slaughter and looting against their own people and had to be moved west.

 

[aktarian]

Rule of thumb: the lower the number the better the quality (4th being something of an exception) and up to 12th were good.

As for their overall eprformance I think it was the question of being elite and as such being given first selection of recruits, first to receive new toys (at least after 1941) and as such used for toughest jobs. They may heve eprformed bette rthan comaprable Heer division but due to how they were treated rather than some inherent superiority.

Manstein believe that the men used in the SS and the Luftwaffe field Divisions would have been better used in standard Heer formations.

He believed that the heer was robbed of good quality recruits.

A Private in an SS or LW Division was far more likely to become an NCO or even an officer in the Heer given their genreally higher quality and therefore were wasted in those 'Private army' formations.

He believed that both types of Formations lacked the Officer and NCO experiance and this led to higher casaulties than an equivilent Heer formation would have done in similiar situations - the Fanatism of the SS units early war actually making things worse as they would continue an attack beyond the point that it should have been abandoned and another way attempted

I always thought that it would have made more sense to grant an SS Title to a veteren Heer formation that had proven itself in battle - like the way a unit might be made a Guards unit in the Russian Army.

I.E. 21st Panzer 'SS' Division

But still remain part of the Heer command structure etc in all respects.

He also said that his experience with these divisions were positive and they performed well. so it's probably more of telling audience what they wanted to hear than some firm opinion.

 

[Athelstane]

I always thought that it would have made more sense to grant an SS Title to a veteren Heer formation that had proven itself in battle - like the way a unit might be made a Guards unit in the Russian Army.

But the whole point of those SS divisions was political and ideological reliability - the nucleus of the postwar German Army desired by Hitler, remade to reflect Nazi ideology. I don't see how this could have flown, either for the SS or the Wehrmacht.

Just call them "Guards" divisions, like the Prussians used to back in the day.

 

[HIM Dogson]

Their main strength came through fanatism, and the blatant favoritism Hitler gave them. On average, they weren't as well trained or well led as the Heer, but had better morale and equipment. I would argue they should have been used as shock troops within the Heer rather than their own separate units, but Hitler was never a rational man.

 

[Daniwani]

I read this not to long ago on some other site, but I'm not particularly sure how solid a reference it is.

Myth: The SS were an elite fighting force, especially their armoured divisions.
Fact: The success attributed to the SS is mostly based on their war diaries (Tigers in Combat). The diaries had little to do with reality (Tigers in Normandy). Even the Wehrmacht slashed the claims of the SS in half when estimating their performance, and Schneider’s research shows that even that was an optimistic figure. For example, Wittmann’s famous battle at Villers-Bocage where he is claims 20 kills only had 7 to his name. His victory was blown out of proportion by SS propaganda, since they were desperate for a tank ace among their own, routinely assigning an entire unit’s accomplishments to one tank/crew.
Most people focus on the three SS divisions that were LAH, Reich, and Totenkopf, which were equivalent to a Wehrmacht division at the best of times. The remaining SS divisions were barely Volkssturm quality, assigned to rear line duties such as executing civilians and fighting partisans. (Credit: Zinegata, Brickfight)

I thought it was pretty well in line with everything else I've read, anyone else?

 

[hx87]

That makes sense militarily but doesn't do much good politically. I mean how can Himmler build an empire for himself if his private army isn't fighting a semi separate war?

Build the SS into an internal security/state security force, like the NKVD in the Soviet Union and the PAP in China, instead of a main combat force. With policing and detention privileges even a strictly light motorized infantry force can be very influential politically.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Build the SS into an internal security/state security force, like the NKVD in the Soviet Union and the PAP in China, instead of a main combat force. With policing and detention privileges even a strictly light motorized infantry force can be very influential politically.

The NKVD had combat units:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_NKVD_Division_(Soviet_Union)

 

[HJ Tulp]

When talking about the Waffen-SS it is important to distinguish between the two types of divisions: German and foreign. With German units it really depended on the division. The best units, such as the Totenkopf or Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, were great in battle and feared by their opponents. The worst units, such as Sonderkommando Dirlewanger, were little more than a mob of criminals used to terrorize the local populace.

For foreign divisions it mainly depended on where they were from. Divisions from Western Europe and the Balkans tended to be very good. The men in these divisions were volunteers who were driven by a hatred of Communism and a love of Fascism. Some, such as the French SS division Charlemagne, were still fighting in Berlin. Those from the East however were generally very low quality. The men in these divisions were mostly Soviet POWs for whom the choice was either join or starve to death in a camp, mixed with local collaborators. They had little motivation, were riddled with dissent, and often either revolted or went on a campaign of wholesale slaughter and looting against their own people and had to be moved west.

Hell Charlemagne broke through the encirclement around Berlin to get into Berlin.

 

[riggerrob]

Build the SS into an internal security/state security force, like the NKVD in the Soviet Union and the PAP in China, instead of a main combat force. With policing and detention privileges even a strictly light motorized infantry force can be very influential politically.

.........................................................................................

You have hit the nail on the head!
Nazi Germany fielded three distinct armies (Whermacht, Waffen SS and Luftwaffe Field Divisions) because they suited Hitler's leadership style. By assigning similar tasks (e.g. raise an army) to three different underlings: General Staff, Himmler and Goering, Hitler ensured that they were too bust squabbling over scarce resources (men and munitions) to challenge Hitler for ultimate power.
Ultimately, three different field armies competing for the same resources (example simultaneous development of Gwehr 43, Fallschirmjager Gwehr 42 and Sturmgwehr 43) diluted the German war effort, with three different factories, three different training schools, three different supply chains and two different streams of ammunition.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Hell Charlemagne broke through the encirclement around Berlin to get into Berlin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_W...SS_Charlemagne_(1st_French)#Defence_of_Berlin
Not really, they got their by manuevering around advanced Soviet elements, it wasn't surrounded yet. Still nuts to want to go into that battle though.

 

[aktarian]

The NKVD had combat units:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_NKVD_Division_(Soviet_Union)

Which is why there is a monument to NKVD at Stali errrr Volgograd

 

[Redbeard]

I read this not to long ago on some other site, but I'm not particularly sure how solid a reference it is.



I thought it was pretty well in line with everything else I've read, anyone else?

SS, or anyone else, certainly weren't the demi-gods(devils) some would make them into, but limiting their elite status to the three above mentioned Divisions is simply far out.

There certainly were many doubtful SS units with foreign "volunteers", but others were as good as the best national SS units, not just Charlemagne. Late war pretty much everything/everybody were pressed into the SS and those units performed accordingly - national or foreign.

I recall that we at officers school were tought about American studies in how large a part of the soldiers in recent military history actually performed rationally in combat, and they had concluded that the Waffen-SS probably had the highest part: 40-50%!

 

[hx87]

The NKVD had combat units:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_NKVD_Division_(Soviet_Union)

They did have combat units of course, but they were foot infantry, not armored formations, and were more oriented towards anti-partisan operations as the front line moved west.

 

[hx87]

SS, or anyone else, certainly weren't the demi-gods(devils) some would make them into, but limiting their elite status to the three above mentioned Divisions is simply far out.

There certainly were many doubtful SS units with foreign "volunteers", but others were as good as the best national SS units, not just Charlemagne. Late war pretty much everything/everybody were pressed into the SS and those units performed accordingly - national or foreign.

I recall that we at officers school were tought about American studies in how large a part of the soldiers in recent military history actually performed rationally in combat, and they had concluded that the Waffen-SS probably had the highest part: 40-50%!

What do you mean by performing 'rationally'?

 

[Major Major]

The worst units, such as Sonderkommando Dirlewanger, were little more than a mob of criminals used to terrorize the local populace.

And we all know how the Sonderkommando Dirlewanger was recruited:

Dr. Dirlewanger: What do you want me to do, Herr Reichsführer?

Himmler: I want you to round up every vicious criminal and gunslinger in the Reich. Take this down.

I want rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists!

Dr. Dirlewanger: Zu befehl!