Hogan's Hero's deals with der osten.

Sam R.

Hogans heros. A luft stalag. Great series. Germany laughs at itself. You know me Hogan, I know…

Who is missing.

You know me Hogan, I know nothing. Nothing.

* * *

Unlike the Academic leftists the leftists around Bob Crane were American (german, Pole, jew, Italian, Irish) through and through. They saw in Hogan's Heros a chance to engage in what actually happened in the war. For the allies. And oh god did those episodes hit hard on rewatching, but also for the Comintern. Hogan' Heros was a "jew play" in a way of a torture of an other, with the other first being "the german" and then being "the allied." Season two took it to an extent nobody could have expected as West Coast collegiate connections linked US Army "law of war" doctorates with hollywood writers. The result was at first as unexpected as the homosexual three way of I dream of Jeannie. And then the analysis started. And it hit home. Later US Military Doctorates would commence from Hogan, but it was Hogan which was there first. The vast atypical deaths amongst Soviet POWs were first brought to western attention through Maksim or Sergey, with their palid starved forms and their lack of integration into the ever successful allied communications network of Hogan.

But then it got worse.

"Nothing I know Nothing."

Despite a majority of "German" actors being jewish in Hogans Hero's it was the deep criticism of every day germanness that broke "Hitler First" narratives in America. By 1986 America was solidly talking about social structures of exploitation and violence in Germany, and thus reflecting on the racial structure of America. This created runctions, prepared for by liberation movements, but by far and away nobody had expected that every day Shultzes would be the inflictors of genocide as summarised later in Browning C.

yours,
Sam R.

(they even had a Free French fighter… I guess all the Soviet pilots were, disposed, otherwise.)
 
Aghasverov

Aghasverov

Sam R. said:
Hogans heros. A luft stalag. Great series. Germany laughs at itself. You know me Hogan, I know…

Who is missing.

You know me Hogan, I know nothing. Nothing.

* * *

Unlike the Academic leftists the leftists around Bob Crane were American (german, Pole, jew, Italian, Irish) through and through. They saw in Hogan's Heros a chance to engage in what actually happened in the war. For the allies. And oh god did those episodes hit hard on rewatching, but also for the Comintern. Hogan' Heros was a "jew play" in a way of a torture of an other, with the other first being "the german" and then being "the allied." Season two took it to an extent nobody could have expected as West Coast collegiate connections linked US Army "law of war" doctorates with hollywood writers. The result was at first as unexpected as the homosexual three way of I dream of Jeannie. And then the analysis started. And it hit home. Later US Military Doctorates would commence from Hogan, but it was Hogan which was there first. The vast atypical deaths amongst Soviet POWs were first brought to western attention through Maksim or Sergey, with their palid starved forms and their lack of integration into the ever successful allied communications network of Hogan.

But then it got worse.

"Nothing I know Nothing."

Despite a majority of "German" actors being jewish in Hogans Hero's it was the deep criticism of every day germanness that broke "Hitler First" narratives in America. By 1986 America was solidly talking about social structures of exploitation and violence in Germany, and thus reflecting on the racial structure of America. This created runctions, prepared for by liberation movements, but by far and away nobody had expected that every day Shultzes would be the inflictors of genocide as summarised later in Browning C.

yours,
Sam R.

(they even had a Free French fighter… I guess all the Soviet pilots were, disposed, otherwise.)
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I remember one episode where there was a captured Soviet pilot....
Of course, in Hogan's Heroes, he was treated no differently than any of the other inmates of Stalag 13....
 
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overoceans

DougM said:
???
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Yeah, I can't really make heads or tails of this, either. For starters...

@Sam R., who were "the leftists around Bob Crane"? Do you mean the writers of the show?

And how was Hogan's Heroes "Germany laugh[ing] at itself"? The show was made by Americans, with only a few German actors, some of whom were, as you say, Jewish, and hence automatically alienated from the nazi vision.
 
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overoceans

Aghasverov said:
I remember one episode where there was a captured Soviet pilot....
Of course, in Hogan's Heroes, he was treated no differently than any of the other inmates of Stalag 13....
Click to expand...

The very early episodes had a Soviet POW, intended to a regular character. On YouTube you can find a video of the original opening-credits featuring the actor.
 
Bbone91

Bbone91

overoceans said:
The very early episodes had a Soviet POW, intended to a regular character. On YouTube you can find a video of the original opening-credits featuring the actor.
Click to expand...
And he left because he felt it trivialized the Holocaust.
Ironically a lot of the Germans were played by people who were affected by the Nazis. Hell, the actor playing Hochstetter, the SS officer, deliberately played him as a paranoid loon so that no one could take the Nazis seriously a la Mel Brooks.
 

Geon

Donor
I was fond of the show. And frankly, in my opinion the show was very apolitical. It tried to steer clear of the darker side of the Nazis and World War II (i.e. the Holocaust). For the most part it was like the World War II films done in the U.S. showing the Nazis for the most part as evil, but also bunglers.
 
Bbone91

Bbone91

Geon said:
I was fond of the show. And frankly, in my opinion the show was very apolitical. It tried to steer clear of the darker side of the Nazis and World War II (i.e. the Holocaust). For the most part it was like the World War II films done in the U.S. showing the Nazis for the most part as evil, but also bunglers.
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I also liked the show, and given the time it was released I doubt you really COULD delve into the Holocaust even as a serious drama.
 

troosvelt_68

One of the original versions had the series set in Italy where the Holocaust wasn't as much an issue. The whole "I see nothing" thing would play into the rather reluctant participation of a lot of Italians in the war and the Nazis would have served as foils where sometimes prisoner and commander were working together
 
Resurgam

Resurgam

troosvelt_68 said:
One of the original versions had the series set in Italy where the Holocaust wasn't as much an issue. The whole "I see nothing" thing would play into the rather reluctant participation of a lot of Italians in the war and the Nazis would have served as foils where sometimes prisoner and commander were working together
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An idea that later comes up with Major Bonacelli.
 

DougM

Well not to belittle the holocaust but there where a lot of folks effected to one degree or another by the Germans in WW2 (including ironically enough Germans) who were not Jewish and as such not everything dealing with WW2 needs to deal with the Holocaust. Just like not everything talking about Japan in WW2 has to center around Dec 7 or the Death March or the Nukes Etc. These were some pretty big wars and they covered a lot of ground over a lot of years and millions were killed or injured fighting it and millions more were killed injured or displaced as a result of it. So not everything has to be about 1 part of it. Just like not everything about GB has to be about Dunkirk or the BoB. Their are important and tragic and heroic and every other kind of story you can think of all over the place in the war and it is ok to tell stories about those things too.
 

LegionoftheUnitedStates

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DTF955Baseballfan

Eh, the Germans were all in on it. It's become somewhat canonical among fans on the fanfiction.net forum that the place was approved as a stalag because it was over an abandoned mine and that's how the tunnels could be so huge. Fans all know there was an episode with a British agent named Nimrod who had to be Klink, Burkhalter, Hochstetter, or all 3 in a unit but no Nimrod agent can know the identity of another Nimrod agent. Another fan fiction has hot stutter as a totally different US agent not connected to Nimrod. Another fan fiction has Hochstetter as a totally different US agent not connected to Nimrod.

So it's easy to just figure as I do here with Nimrod's view of the D-day episode that this was just one large Allied insurgence and the alternate history can spread from there. Thanks to Mrs. Schultz we can even have them helping to helping to save at least a few Jewish children. Like here.

And, if this was the center of all in insurgency then you could even argue that there's really no difference between that and our time line, although as I show here something very significant could happen later because of the top black soldier in the unit.
 
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Sam R.

overoceans said:
@Sam R., who were "the leftists around Bob Crane"? Do you mean the writers of the show?
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I’m trying to make a place for the PoD being a different group around Crane.

overoceans said:
And how was Hogan's Heroes "Germany laugh[ing] at itself"? The show was made by Americans, with only a few German actors, some of whom were, as you say, Jewish, and hence automatically alienated from the nazi vision.
Click to expand...
I was suggesting that a vision of Germany involving Jewish Germans as Germans would be a better way to approach Germany than the exclusionary version. The impotence of Germany and nazism was part of the original show.
Geon said:
I was fond of the show. And frankly, in my opinion the show was very apolitical. It tried to steer clear of the darker side of the Nazis and World War II
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It was. But the only way to deal with the East would necessarily make this a different show. Which is why I referenced the Elizabethan tradition of plays, also because I had been debating making Merchant of Venice into a tragedy that night.

The historical show produces a western exceptionalist narrative that while supporting comedy didn’t drive history or public history forward.

A Hogans with an East is a nine pm kind of show. That doesn’t mean doom. It would certainly change its impact especially if it prefigured the soon to happen changes in historiography. It would be a prefiguration of MASH, and necessarily be more about the silent suffering of Korean veterans as forgotten, much like MASH talked more about Vietnam than Korea.

There’s even space for “a very special” episode if the East is more of an episode hook than recurrent feature. If anything the more rigorous production system of Cranes’ time could leverage this kind of thing expertly. And with Hogan focused on systems rather than individuals in MASH the very special episodes could certainly “go” Stalin/ism sufficiently for approval.
 
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