Faeelin
Banned
There was, then, no demand for the next seventeen hundred years.
Sometimes I feel that people who want to leap straight to a Roman industrial Revolution are like people complaining that the Victorians didn't invent email.
Hero of Alexandria points Rome towards the Space Age
- Thread starter Sinaz
- Start date
There was, then, no demand for the next seventeen hundred years.
Sometimes I feel that people who want to leap straight to a Roman industrial Revolution are like people complaining that the Victorians didn't invent email.
Another problem with the Roman Empire was that 'thinking' was slave work - you bought a Greek to do it for you. This is not conducive to technological advancement.
A non-roman, possibly Alexandrian POD (point of departure) might work better for what you want. But 300 hundred years to the moon is WAY too fast.
Look at the number of metals the Romans even knew of: Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Mercury, Silver, Gold. That may be exhaustive. When your metallurgy is that primitive, there's no way you're going to get into orbit in 300 years!
A non-roman, possibly Alexandrian POD (point of departure) might work better for what you want. But 300 hundred years to the moon is WAY too fast.
Look at the number of metals the Romans even knew of: Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Mercury, Silver, Gold. That may be exhaustive. When your metallurgy is that primitive, there's no way you're going to get into orbit in 300 years!
Oh, and regarding the population base to support this, 18th century people had the advantage of a much larger crop package, as it included all the new world crops as well, enabling much more agricultural productivity across the world.
Yeah this Roman industrial revolution stuff is...wrong.
It certainly is cool which is why people flock to it but the industrial revolution IOTL was built upon the agriculutral revolution, the establishment of modern banking, the opening up of all these vast markets for you to sell your wares to, etc...
Just look at canals- they 18th/19th century railways built before railways were decent enough for the task. Without the need for such movements though you won't see railways invented.
It certainly is cool which is why people flock to it but the industrial revolution IOTL was built upon the agriculutral revolution, the establishment of modern banking, the opening up of all these vast markets for you to sell your wares to, etc...
Just look at canals- they 18th/19th century railways built before railways were decent enough for the task. Without the need for such movements though you won't see railways invented.
1) The best way to get the Romans to advance technologically would be for slavery not to be used. Spartacus takes Rome? Anyway, if there were no slaves, the Romans had the know-how to build water wheels and would now have reason to.
Eureka! Proto-Industrial Revolution!
There'd still be cheap labor, same as what held back European development for centuries.
2) Maintain or establish colleges/universities. Did Rome have any centers of higher learning? Political stability is needed for higher learning to flourish.
3) The Romans and Greeks invented lots of cool stuff that they never used. How could technological innovation become, uhhh, accepted? used? Part of the cultural imperative (whatever that means)?
4) I think most of this has been discussed in earlier threads.
5)
That said, i've always wondered how Hero's engine could be harnessed to do work. It seems to me that if it was fitted with gears or pulleys or whatever, that would slow it down so that it wouldn't work at all. Maybe if it was built extra heavy and given a push to start, the weight would act as a flywheel and, hmmm. Anyway.
A Dirge for Sabis had a engine similar to Hero's used to power a side-wheel paddle boat.
6) Trade frequently leads to exchanges of ideas. Foster internal trade and ideas will spread amongst the people, which leads to wider usage and a broader range of minds to produce further innovations. Foster external trade to get ideas and ways of thought from foreign lands that have had an entirely different technological history. This requires being open to foreign ideas.
P.S.
Eureka! Proto-Industrial Revolution!
There'd still be cheap labor, same as what held back European development for centuries.
2) Maintain or establish colleges/universities. Did Rome have any centers of higher learning? Political stability is needed for higher learning to flourish.
3) The Romans and Greeks invented lots of cool stuff that they never used. How could technological innovation become, uhhh, accepted? used? Part of the cultural imperative (whatever that means)?
4) I think most of this has been discussed in earlier threads.
5)
Pistons are totally different technology from Hero's engine, which was more of a turbine. Making piston engines wasn't feasible until cannon were well developed because of the precise tolerances necessary when boring the cylinders.
That said, i've always wondered how Hero's engine could be harnessed to do work. It seems to me that if it was fitted with gears or pulleys or whatever, that would slow it down so that it wouldn't work at all. Maybe if it was built extra heavy and given a push to start, the weight would act as a flywheel and, hmmm. Anyway.
A Dirge for Sabis had a engine similar to Hero's used to power a side-wheel paddle boat.
6) Trade frequently leads to exchanges of ideas. Foster internal trade and ideas will spread amongst the people, which leads to wider usage and a broader range of minds to produce further innovations. Foster external trade to get ideas and ways of thought from foreign lands that have had an entirely different technological history. This requires being open to foreign ideas.
P.S.
Hmmm. Greek slave-professors. Anyway, i'm not sure about that. Being an architect was a esteemed position. And, according to Vitruvius, architects also did machinery, including water wheels, piston(!) pumps, and siege weapons. It seems to me that doing was esteemed over thinking in Roman culture, as being a doctor or an architect was prestigious but philosophy was looked at with suspicion.
Darn straight. Much too fast. More like 800 years (or more).
Well, the Chinese discovered many things long before the Europeans did, but didn't apply their learnings to understand the world, since they believed every tree, rock and hill had a spirit that influenced the world. With gunpowder, the Chinese made firecrackers because they noticed a poppig noise; the Europeans made guns and cannon because they learned to understand compression and force.
If you believe there is only one god, then you can imagine that said god set out rules for the way things work, and you can try to decipher them. If there are many gods each acting on whim, than there's no sense to nature that can be understood.
Take the example of understanding gravity rather than floods: "the 'one god' set a rule that things fall to earth, maybe I can understand that rule", as opposed to "the gods hold some things up, and some things down. Theirs is to know why."
Hello, Alternate History folks. I just registered for pretty much this one thread. Call it research or open-source brain-storming.
I am working on a project which will require an alternate history frame work.
I need to get from Point A:
Hero of Alexandria pursues his Aeolipile into practical application as a viable steam engine, first deployed, let's say, 62ishAD.
...to Point B:
in, let's say, 269ishAD, Rome puts its first milestone on the center of the Moon's face with a historic marble marker engraved with an arrow pointing straight up to Earth, and an inscription: "Omnes viae Romam ducunt"... all roads lead to Rome (I hope)
...to Point C:
The dark ages befall the remnants of the Roman Interplanetary Empire circa 1200AD... in which a few dozen deep space colonies lay mostly isolated as the monolithic hyperspace gates built by the Romans fall into decay.
Just imagine a picture of ancient Rome with the vapor-trail plume of a rocket arcing away from it in the third century AD, and then let your imagination run with it.
I'll be chiming in with my own ideas and comments as we go. Thanks for the input!
There's no way that spaceflight would take place so quickly after the invention of a primitive steam engine.
First of all, there has to be a reason why Heron's steam engine is put to use in this ATL. In OTL, it was never used to do any work, and was intended as merely a demonstration of what can be done. The only application I'm aware of is that it was used to automatically open temple doors, in order to create the appearance of divine intervention.
I once pondered a scenario whereby Archimedes invents calculus c. 200 BC by surviving the siege of Syracuse, instead of being killed. He gets taken captive as a hostage by the Roman general Marcellus, and spends the remainder of his life (likely short as he was pretty old by 212 BC) as a guest similar to that of Polybius by Scipio.
Recent investigation has revealed that Archimedes may have actually invented something that passed for primitive calculus, but that it was so ahead of its time and so esoteric that it barely got noticed.
In OTL, Archimedes was already an obscure figure less than 200 years later, despite his great achievements, such that Cicero had to do a special investigation to discover his dilapidated grave in Syracuse, which he restored. I postulate that, as a Roman guest, he would've achieved greater notoriety, fame, and recognition, possibly even having an academy founded in Syracuse called "Archimedia." This would've attracted notable scholars throughout the Mediterranean that might give a scientific boost to the time period, especially after 31 BC, when Rome officially annexes Egypt, along with Alexandria.
By having access to more advanced calculating techniques, there would be fewer errors in scientific judgement and perhaps great tech progress. For example, Ptolemy of Alexandria would've never postulated a geocentric universe. It was already clear from Eratosthenes (3rd century BC) that heliocentrism was the way to go, and for a while, there were two competing schools in astronomy. Geocentrism ended up becoming more widespread by the Middle Ages, which was an outrageous stupidity. In this ATL, I'd suspect that either an alt-Ptolemy, or perhaps Hipparchus, would formulate a heliocentric model that would catch on.
Some early inventions that might come off an alt-aeilopile (perhaps one that turned gears instead of just spun), might be railroads, and steamships. Railroads would be a useful upgrade to the already widespread Roman road network. I don't anticipate them being in widespread use until about the reign of Septimius Severus (c. 193). Probably they'd be used first for military purposes, and later for commercial, as Septimius Severus was first a general. Around the same time, steamships would make an apperance. Unlike steam locomotives, steamships would likely be used initially in commercial shipping and transit, because the Mediterranean had by then been thoroughly free of piracy and foreign threat, removing any need for military application. The Empire relied on the Mediterranean as a kind of maritime highway that allowed for widespread trade and communication.
As for industrialization, I don't foresee that any earlier than around 300, as much of the 3rd century would be spent in anarchy. By this time, there are no wars of conquest and therefore fewer slaves to labor, necessitating labor-saving factories. Industrialization would come too little too late to rescue the declining empire, but may prolong its successor, the Byzantine Empire.
Pistons existed. Very good ones for the technical abilities of the time. Mainly used for pumping water. Not quite sufficient to handle the pressures involved with steam, however.
The Aeliopile had very little torque and you would get very very little work out of it if you hooked it up to anything. The effort necessary to run it, keep it fueled, etc. would indeed make it pointless.
Oh, and I should add that Heron did come very close to inventing the crankshaft. He designed a wind organ that almost has a crank shaft. Instead, there's a lever that catches on a rotating wheel, that is pulled up, and then falls down after slipping by.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere.
I'll concede that the time period may be short. My main goal is to develop an ATL that has a futuristic human scenario that is dated several hundred years in the past by our current era calendar. I want the audience to see something like "Planet Alexandria, 1248AD" and think it cool that if we (as in mankind) just held on to knowledge and embraced progress that we could already be navigating the stars.
So let's say...
~62AD - Hero of Alexandria develops the Aeliopile - improves the steam organ - and in a bought of accidental genius, drops a wad of something into one of the pipes of the organ. He intuits venting pressure up the pipe to retrieve the plugged object. This gives him the idea to directly divert steam to generate pressure to operate pistons, and eventually to design a crankshaft. He invents a steam-piston engine.
Let's not destroy the Library of Alexandria and use that as a center for scientific and theoretical progress.
I'm going to compile a list of things you all say "need" to happen and fabricate some historical points in history for them. If the "Apollo" missions have to occur later than 269AD, that's fine... But I want to keep it before the turn of the millennium, and I want it to have that x69 year just to make it parallel the OTL Apollo mission. Technology grows exponentially - and I simply want the "modern" Roman empire to be a result of Roman stability (however fictitious this may be) in which progress is made up through the first millennium.
I'll concede that the time period may be short. My main goal is to develop an ATL that has a futuristic human scenario that is dated several hundred years in the past by our current era calendar. I want the audience to see something like "Planet Alexandria, 1248AD" and think it cool that if we (as in mankind) just held on to knowledge and embraced progress that we could already be navigating the stars.
So let's say...
~62AD - Hero of Alexandria develops the Aeliopile - improves the steam organ - and in a bought of accidental genius, drops a wad of something into one of the pipes of the organ. He intuits venting pressure up the pipe to retrieve the plugged object. This gives him the idea to directly divert steam to generate pressure to operate pistons, and eventually to design a crankshaft. He invents a steam-piston engine.
Let's not destroy the Library of Alexandria and use that as a center for scientific and theoretical progress.
I'm going to compile a list of things you all say "need" to happen and fabricate some historical points in history for them. If the "Apollo" missions have to occur later than 269AD, that's fine... But I want to keep it before the turn of the millennium, and I want it to have that x69 year just to make it parallel the OTL Apollo mission. Technology grows exponentially - and I simply want the "modern" Roman empire to be a result of Roman stability (however fictitious this may be) in which progress is made up through the first millennium.
Faeelin
Banned
You know, the Chiense also used guns, and water power, harnessing it very effectively.
Counter argument: In many Buddhist traditions, gods are subject to the same universal laws that everyone else is, regardless of the fact that they are gods.
Compare this to Christianity, where God has the power to make the earth stand still, flood the planet, and make people out of mud.
Faeelin
Banned
You know, the Chiense also used guns, and water power, harnessing it very effectively.
Counter argument: In many Buddhist traditions, gods are subject to the same universal laws that everyone else is, regardless of the fact that they are gods.
Compare this to Christianity, where God has the power to make the earth stand still, flood the planet, and make people out of mud.
Faeelin
Banned
Yes, but well dressed Romans who are reading mass produced books while investing in mininig in Dacia isn't sexy.
You do realize that the Industrail Revolution lasted for 345 years in OTL? I think that the problem is not that the time frame is too fast, that in order for this to happen you have to get the Romans to develope the concept of science and to do that you have to get them to explore beyond the borders of the Empire. And in order to do that, you have to have the Arabs cut off the trade routes with Asia.
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I don't buy your counter-argument, because if there is an acceptance of universal laws, that even 'gods' can't break (and Buddhist gods are a little different than say the pantheon of Greek or Roman mythology - more like elevated beings than all-powerful spoiled children playing with mankind), then the randomness of nature is removed that way. What other factor kept the buddhists from developing the scientific method? I don't know, but a universe without a logical basis wouldn't be it, as it was for most ancient civilizations.
Faeelin
Banned
I maintain that if a Buddhist monastery has shrines devoted to a supernatural being, then that supernatural being should be considered to be part of some Buddhist sects.
Faeelin
Banned
I'm not sure I'd accept the idea that the Greeks didn't have a logical worldview, either.
Well, some of them.
Anyway, now it seems to be that you're just saying you need a view of a world that runs according to set rules, which is grossly different than saying you need Monotheism.
I'm saying that monotheism helps to foster the idea that there are rules to the universe...