"Gusher Age" in the CSA.

Hendryk

Banned
The CSA had a tradition of limited democracy, the firm grip that the planters had on power means instant transition to peace and love is unlikely but it also means that it is unlikely to fall into Caudilloism.
Emphasis on the "limited" part. The CSA was a virtual dictatorship in OTL and I don't see why a racist, entrenced planter class which had just gone to war to preserve its privileges would then turn around and discover a sudden love of democracy within itself. The political choices for an independent CSA are either a perpetuation of the pre-war quasi-feudal oligarchy, or more likely, descent into proto-fascism as the elites realize that the only way to remain on top while keeping the rabble under control will require giving all power to a strongman.
 
Emphasis on the "limited" part. The CSA was a virtual dictatorship in OTL and I don't see why a racist, entrenced planter class which had just gone to war to preserve its privileges would then turn around and discover a sudden love of democracy within itself. The political choices for an independent CSA are either a perpetuation of the pre-war quasi-feudal oligarchy, or more likely, descent into proto-fascism as the elites realize that the only way to remain on top while keeping the rabble under control will require giving all power to a strongman.

Especially since the CSA's precursor-states in peacetime in what had been the united USA were already becoming progressively more dictatorial to prop up slavery within the USA. As an independent state this tradition will be more, not less, amplified by the improbable triumph of a resource-poor and manpower poor CSA over a resource and manpower rich USA (no matter the actual circumstances CS propaganda will play this up for all it's worth).
 
Regarding folks escaping from slavery, I'm wondering if the CSA wouldn't re-open the trans-Atlantic slave trade.



Oh, and if everyone keeps bringing up parallels to what could happen as long as we see an oil-struck CSA as akin to a Latin American country with the same situation, may I humbly present the mighty savior of Texas?

(It could happen. A family goes north, maybe by way of several generations in pre-Polk northern Mexico, etc., etc.)

_____

The Savior Of Texas.JPG
 
Regarding folks escaping from slavery, I'm wondering if the CSA wouldn't re-open the trans-Atlantic slave trade.



Oh, and if everyone keeps bringing up parallels to what could happen as long as we see an oil-struck CSA as akin to a Latin American country with the same situation, may I humbly present the mighty savior of Texas?

(It could happen. A family goes north, maybe by way of several generations in pre-Polk northern Mexico, etc., etc.)

_____

Actually re-opening the tran-Atlantic slave trade is very unlikely for 2 reasons

1) It was unconstitional under CSA law. They might be able to get around that one by saying it restricts only the CSA central government or something

2) The Royal Navy which is something that they can't get around. The Royal Navy patroled East Africa to prevent just that. If the CSA is dumb enough to have their ships open fire on the Royal Navy they WILL get what they deserve. However, even Jeff Davis at his worst wasn't THAT dumb!
 
Actually re-opening the tran-Atlantic slave trade is very unlikely for 2 reasons

1) It was unconstitional under CSA law. They might be able to get around that one by saying it restricts only the CSA central government or something

2) The Royal Navy which is something that they can't get around. The Royal Navy patroled East Africa to prevent just that. If the CSA is dumb enough to have their ships open fire on the Royal Navy they WILL get what they deserve. However, even Jeff Davis at his worst wasn't THAT dumb!

It was also in the interests of the upper south to keep all slave trading domestic. Much of Virginia's soils were played out by tobacco cultivation. Nevertheless, their planters did a bumper business raising and selling slaves to the cotton belt.
 
It was also in the interests of the upper south to keep all slave trading domestic. Much of Virginia's soils were played out by tobacco cultivation. Nevertheless, their planters did a bumper business raising and selling slaves to the cotton belt.

Aye, despite the CS Constitutional provisions against protectionism, banning international slave trading was very important to protecting slave markets.
 
It was also in the interests of the upper south to keep all slave trading domestic. Much of Virginia's soils were played out by tobacco cultivation. Nevertheless, their planters did a bumper business raising and selling slaves to the cotton belt.

Yeah. That's the fun thing about the CSA. Whenever you think they've hit peak loathsome, you discover some new fact about them that raises--or lowers--the bar.
 
I'm slightly confused why there are going to be major oil companies in the US in the scenario of Confederate independence?

Because the US oil industry began in 1859 with the Pennsylvania Oil Rush followed by the Ohio oil rush in 1860. All the major oil booms before 1900 were located in areas that were the Union - not the Confederacy. All the major refining areas of the US were in the North - Clevelend, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and New York. The oil industry had already begun during the Civil War - in the North, not the South. By the 1870s Standard Oil was the dominant oil company and would soon become a monopoly.

In contrast, the Texas oil boom doesn't begin until the early 1900s - some 40 to 50 years later.

By the time the Confederates are able to find any oil in Texas, the US will have the companies (more like 1 company) that controls the market. Standard Oil will have all the financing, technology, and infrastructure sewed up. And it will be ruthless in protecting its monopoly.

And if you are thinking the British are going to get involved, they won't until First Sealord Jackie Fisher decides the future of the Royal Navy is with oil, not coal. Neither Royal Dutch Shell nor BP (originally Anglo-Persian) started until after 1900.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Emphasis on the "limited" part. The CSA was a virtual dictatorship in OTL and I don't see why a racist, entrenced planter class which had just gone to war to preserve its privileges would then turn around and discover a sudden love of democracy within itself. The political choices for an independent CSA are either a perpetuation of the pre-war quasi-feudal oligarchy, or more likely, descent into proto-fascism as the elites realize that the only way to remain on top while keeping the rabble under control will require giving all power to a strongman.

Will France ever escape the grip of Bonapartism and revolutionary coups?
 
Will France ever escape the grip of Bonapartism and revolutionary coups?

Well, if we factor in the end of the Fourth Republic and the Vichy Era.....and I might note that even with the perennial instability of French "eras" that France is not the guide you want to a CSA. The CSA will be more like the USSR in deliberately orienting itself *against* the prevailing economic-political-social institutions of its time, without the USSR's capacity to create massive mechanized armies.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Will France ever escape the grip of Bonapartism and revolutionary coups?
And how many violent upheavals did it take France to reach a semblance of political stability? As for Bonapartism, it's not a stretch to consider that its most recent manifestation was the Gaullist era, within living memory of our parents' generation.

I'm not sure what you were trying to say here, but if your point is that countries change, I'll retort that the changing can be, and often is, rather an unpleasant phase to go through.
 

Faeelin

Banned
And how many violent upheavals did it take France to reach a semblance of political stability? As for Bonapartism, it's not a stretch to consider that its most recent manifestation was the Gaullist era, within living memory of our parents' generation.

It seemed stable enough to manage four years of total war while enemy armies occupied much of the heartland between 1914 and 1918, no?

Your characterization of the CSA seems inaccurate. By your standards the USA in 1783 was a limited, caudillo-prone aristocracy as well.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Your characterization of the CSA seems inaccurate. By your standards the USA in 1783 was a limited, caudillo-prone aristocracy as well.
The USA of 1783 was very much an aristocracy in all but name. And although it got lucky with its political leadership, the strongman temptation was definitely there.

Anyway the burden of the proof is rather on people claiming that the CSA could have been democratic, when for its short existence as an independent country it embodied all the worse aspects of a Latin American dictatorship.
 
1) So did South Africa. That didn't 1) impair it from becoming a totalitarian dictatorship or 2) having that dictatorship implode. South Africa was also dominated by an English-speaking elite committed to a racist view of politics, with no scruples as to how to maintain it.

I would disagree with your characterisation of South Africa as a totatlitarian dictatorship in the strongest terms, even during the 1980's at the height of the Rooi gevaar free and fair elections were held and rule of law upheld (even if the law was immoral it was upheld). See for example the Muldergate Scandal. Government ministers broke the law, government ministers got caught and punished, even the head of the state.

On the topic of a CSA even if the electorate is severely limited and thus pursues policies that serves the interests of the planters rather than the wider nation it does means that it is less likely to suffer the sort of incompetent, kleptocratic leadership that so bedevilled Latin America. That doesn't mean it's going to equal the USA but it does means it's going to do better than Honduras.

2) And if the rich neighbor has territory the poor neighbor thinks is rightfully its own and it thinks the fluke of the 1860s must repeat itself every single time, why is it going to accept that rich neighbor controlling territory it sees as rightfully its own to control? The CSA will see the USA as a threat regardless of whether or not the USA is or intends to be, and they have no choice but to sustain a large army to meet that threat and the real and (mostly) imagined prospects of slave revolts (imagined primarily due to how brutal the CS surveillance system would be).

No argument but sustaining such a force might in some respects be helpful in the long term by building up the capacity of the CS government and maybe helping get around the ban on internal improvements (similar to Eisenhower and the Interstate Network).

3) On the contrary, the CSA has limited democracy, self-imposed ideological shackles that will mean common-sense economics will be identified with treason to the state as well as being politically impossible to actually accomplish and most crucially its political system is built on a full third of its population being ground underfoot as an illiterate slave class by the other 2/3 in a political system where criticism of slavery had already become illegal and the least hint of dissension was already seeing repression when the CSA had the ability to freeload on the North and the North being strongarmed into enforcing the Fugitive Slave Law. The CSA will inherit *that* tradition and *that* tradition is the real menace to its democratic survival, and *that* tradition is the one that just so happens to predate the establishment of an existing CSA with a siege mentality to rival that of the apartheid regime and Israel, without a means to ghettoize blacks who are too essential in terms of labor for the very regime's survival.

You are making two separate arguments here imho, one is that slavery is a dumb economic system and breeds poverty and two that maintaining it corrupts and weakens the rest of the CSA, including it's democracy.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that even if slavery is an economic boon in a cash crop centred economy that era is passing and the CSA risks being left behind, however once again I am not making a comparison with the vastly superior US system, but rather the serfdom (hacienda system and equivalents) which prevailed in much of Latin America during this period. Here I personally think that considering some of the CSA's other advantages I've mentioned and the fact that serfdom is imho a less efficient system than chattel slavery I think the CSA will out perform the Latin American average, though it will be far behind the USA. No matter how immoral we regard the internal slave trade by moving labour from where it was no longer required (the Upper South) to where it was in demand (the Cotton Belt) slavery mimicked some of the advantages of a truly free labour market, unlike serfdom which keeps people where they are, even if they could be better used elsewhere.

As for the effect of slavery on CS democracy I have to disagree with you, the sense of siege mentality and the undemocratic undertaken by the CSA during it's brief existence suggests it's democracy would be flawed, however I continued to believe that it had sufficient history of democracy and that it was sufficiently embedded into custom and practice the it would be unlike to descend into Caudilloism but rather maintain at least some form of democracy, even if it is an oligarchic authoritarian democracy. That put's it above the general run of Latin American countries.


Once again I am not suggesting the CSA will be comparable to the USA, or that it will be prosperous and (properly) democratic; just that it won't be an economic basket case with a tinpot dictatorship.
 

Faeelin

Banned
On the topic of a CSA even if the electorate is severely limited and thus pursues policies that serves the interests of the planters rather than the wider nation it does means that it is less likely to suffer the sort of incompetent, kleptocratic leadership that so bedevilled Latin America. That doesn't mean it's going to equal the USA but it does means it's going to do better than Honduras.

I'm actually not sure why the electorate would be limited. You'll have tons of veterans returning home, and there was an almost universal push to expand franchise in this period. The average Confederate Joe is the man who whipped the Yankees; now you're gonna deny him the vote?

however once again I am not making a comparison with the vastly superior US system, but rather the serfdom (hacienda system and equivalents) which prevailed in much of Latin America during this period. Here I personally think that considering some of the CSA's other advantages I've mentioned and the fact that serfdom is imho a less efficient system than chattel slavery I think the CSA will out perform the Latin American average, though it will be far behind the USA.

One of the things you see in the 1850s in southern legal documents is increased liquidity in slaves. People are assigning them to trusts, for instance. This is much more liquid than Latin-American plantations (which I suspect are a bit of a myth; Mexico is not Argentina is not Brazil).
 
I would disagree with your characterisation of South Africa as a totatlitarian dictatorship in the strongest terms, even during the 1980's at the height of the Rooi gevaar free and fair elections were held and rule of law upheld (even if the law was immoral it was upheld).

This is true if your perspective is that of a white person in South Africa. I don't know if black Africans would have that same perspective.

Once again I am not suggesting the CSA will be comparable to the USA, or that it will be prosperous and (properly) democratic; just that it won't be an economic basket case with a tinpot dictatorship.

Here I agree with you. CSA will probably be between the worst Latin American country and the USA, probably closer to Latin America though. It has potential to do somewhat better, but more likely to do worse. Some Latin American countries will probably do better than the CSA (especially the Southern Cone). I would not be surprised though if the CSA eventually suffers a civil war or insurrection of its own. It has a lot of "internal contradictions" as a Marxist might describe.
 
It doesn't take a genius to work out that even if slavery is an economic boon in a cash crop centred economy that era is passing and the CSA risks being left behind, however once again I am not making a comparison with the vastly superior US system, but rather the serfdom (hacienda system and equivalents) which prevailed in much of Latin America during this period. Here I personally think that considering some of the CSA's other advantages I've mentioned and the fact that serfdom is imho a less efficient system than chattel slavery I think the CSA will out perform the Latin American average, though it will be far behind the USA. No matter how immoral we regard the internal slave trade by moving labour from where it was no longer required (the Upper South) to where it was in demand (the Cotton Belt) slavery mimicked some of the advantages of a truly free labour market, unlike serfdom which keeps people where they are, even if they could be better used elsewhere.

I hate to say this but I think you are right here. The hacienda system was basically a system of debt slavery. From a moral point of view it mainly has the advantage that families couldn't be broken up by having their family members sold. From an economic point of view you are correct. Chattel slavery is more flexible in moving around labor.
 
This is true if your perspective is that of a white person in South Africa. I don't know if black Africans would have that same perspective.



Here I agree with you. CSA will probably be between the worst Latin American country and the USA, probably closer to Latin America though. It has potential to do somewhat better, but more likely to do worse. Some Latin American countries will probably do better than the CSA (especially the Southern Cone). I would not be surprised though if the CSA eventually suffers a civil war or insurrection of its own. It has a lot of "internal contradictions" as a Marxist might describe.

It is also likely to lose its members one by one as states leave the moment they don't get their way and throw a temper tantrum.
 
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