When the particulars of the design became known by the Allies, the Deutschland-class armored ships, they attempted to prevent Germany from building them. The Reichsmarine offered to halt construction on the first ship in exchange for admittance to the Washington Treaty with a ratio of 125,000 long tons (127,000 t) to Britain's allotment of 525,000 long tons (533,000 t) of capital ship tonnage. In doing so, this would effectively abrogate the clauses in the Treaty of Versailles that limited Germany's naval power. Britain and the United States favored making concessions to Germany, but France refused to allow any revisions to the Treaty of Versailles. Since the ships did not violate the terms of the Treaty, the Allies could not prevent Germany from building them after a negotiated settlement proved unattainable. If France would have agreed to the changes what would Germany build? I believe the Deutschland-class would be come dead, instead the Reichsmarine could build up to 3-35,000 ton battleships or maybe 4-26,000 ton battleships. What would they build? Besides eliminated the need for France to build the Dunkerque-class, what other butterflies might occur?
Germany joins Washington Naval Treaty
- Thread starter Musketeer513
- Start date
The resources Germany would use to build up to treaty limits in the 30s would be better used elsewhere. Sure if they got a few larger ships built and ready by 1939-40 that would constitute more of an issue for the RN and MN, however that would not be the most sensible use of German resources.
When would germnay get to build the new ships?
If its straight after WNT then they are far to strong, GB only got 2 new 35,000t ships N&R after WNT so three would be massively destabilising.
If its at 1LNT then it only works if other get to build the replacements as well, this could work but means RN + others get 15 news ships over OTL.
If its 2LNT it like OTL....
The underlying motivation for the entire Treaty system was to maintain British naval supremacy in the face of the USA's ability to easily attain a larger navy and assert itself as the global naval power. Each step in these treaties curbed the American advantages and steered her to lose either interest or Congressional consensus. The later AGNA shows the same logic, it subverted Germany to British power and set her to offset France just as Italy had done in the WNT. I suspect the French understood this at least in part and could not allow Germany to build back to the Naval strength to equal her combined with Italy, France's ambitions were thus dashed. Since a sane Hitler is near-ASB I will assume this is the Weimar Republic testing her shackles. The best ships to build fully defend against any French intrusion into her affairs in the North Sea and contain Russia in the Baltic. Something not unlike the so-called pocket Battleship. These are not genuinely a threat to the RN but can hold France at bay and blockade Russia if needed. Germany needs to focus n the plan Tirpitz talked of, defend Germany from a close blockade or landing, impose her will on routes to Russia and control the North Sea through denying it to others. I assume Germany here gets its trade from the USA, China and the British who will safeguard it. Here no war is on the horizon, rather Germany is destroying the ToV and regaining her place at the big table, a navy is not her need but rather a want.
I would debate this, The treaty originally worked so well because both sides wanted it to work to benefit themselves. I think the original WNT was hosted by the US after all due to very large parts of the US government/congress not wanting to spend the money required to out build GB. I would point to cruiser limits at WNT/1LNT as the US getting what it wanted for more than RN ideals...
But with the ability to build larger 35,kt 16" ships I think the Germans would be stupid not to build a far better raider, this totally destabilizes Europe and the building holiday as GB/Fr (and therfore everybody else) will have to respond.
@Musketeer513
How did you compute your rather "strange" ratio of 125.000 to 525.000 tons regarding capital ships ?
It's a ratio of 1,1904.... to 5. Something totally out of the scope of the "traditional" WNT. I would expect a ratio of 1,5 (157.500 tons), 1,33... (140.000 tons) or 1,25 (131.250 tons) (to keep it below the french and italian "allowances" of 1,66... (175.000 tons) or even lower at only 1 (105.000 tons).
How did you compute your rather "strange" ratio of 125.000 to 525.000 tons regarding capital ships ?
It's a ratio of 1,1904.... to 5. Something totally out of the scope of the "traditional" WNT. I would expect a ratio of 1,5 (157.500 tons), 1,33... (140.000 tons) or 1,25 (131.250 tons) (to keep it below the french and italian "allowances" of 1,66... (175.000 tons) or even lower at only 1 (105.000 tons).
Most likely from 1930, the "London Naval Treaty" onwards, as the date Germany would be "accepted" into the treaty-system.
Possibly during the last quarter of 1927 but surely during the 1st quarter of 1928 the specs of the Deutschland-class would become known. The Brits didn't "like" them, as they were so outside any the "traditional" system of "simili similibus" or the system of "classes" of warships.
ITTL this might be their "drive" to incorporate the germans into the system to avoid these "no-class" ships, that threatened to bust the system of comparability, that "guaranteed" british naval supremacy.
Nevertheless it will take quite some time and effort to "convince" the other powers - esp. France - to accept the germans into the naval-treaty-system. There was still the rather sobering experience of the Geneva Naval Conference of 19127 (without any result).
Therefore : date of inclusion of Germany 1930.
I would expect it to be set in increments of 35,000t like all the end ratios where at WNT/LNT, so 105, 140, 175....
The problem with this is simply what does the KM get to build?
If they get even one 35,000t ship then everybody else will need to so no extension to the building holiday like OTL LNT, but I agree that they could easily be added if the old WNT build schedule is kept.
Just to clarify do you mean,
- You cant see them being invited to get that much powerful ships?
(I agree with this)
- You cant see that giving them three post Jutland ships would unbalance the treaty balance?
(RN only had Hood that's fast and strong, with two more slow and strong NU&R and two fast but weak R&R. So allowing Germany to have three new strong fast ships without removing the 1LNT building holiday would totally destroy the balance)
Thats pretty much what i mean. The London Naval Treaty was agreed because UK and USA didn't want to build new. If Germany are allowed build new big battleships Britain and USA have to build new battleships and more of them and France Japan and Italy too (not sure all would be able to afford it and get building programs through their parliaments).
3 new build 35k tonne battleships would probably be able to render every navy afloat obsolete.
Assuming they build faster battleships I will guess 3 27 knot battleships with 3x3 15 inch guns would be the best battleships in the world at this time. Hood would be the next best battleship afloat and would be well behind.
Yes and this hits the required RN size hard. In OTL the RN could plan at WNT to send its main fleet east to match IJN as the remaining European forces Fr/It where made up of very weak old ships that could be matched by 13.5" spare ships. This would require the main fleet to stay home as three new will require 6 or 7 RN new ships to cover them ie RN will want 2 v 1 with a spare as KM can choose when it wants to fight. Realistically only Hood can be included in that number and maybe R&R as one ship as everything else is to slow so RN needs 5 or 6 new fast ships.....
The time would be 1928, I couldn't see a ship joining the fleet before 1931 of course the Great Depression might slow things. and even with 3 ships that Germany would have versus the 20 Britain has.
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No it would be three new German ships v three Post Jutland or fast ship (not the same three just to make it worse) RN has and that's completely unacceptable for GB. The rest are simply not going to be acceptable as they are far to old and slow to be relevant here.
GB will almost certainly walk out of the 1LNT building holiday and build 15 new battleship as the WNT original scheduled if this happens.
I thought the numbers were a little strange myself but I took it straight from Wikipedia in their entry on the Deutschland-class.
You say 3 ships vs 16 (15 after Lnt historically I believe) but I would say 3 fast battleships against 3 old battlecruisers. Hood Renown and Repulse against the new German ships.
As others have said, Britain have no fast ships designed with the experience of Jutland in mind, and the only ships able to catch them is the Hood and R&R, which are pre jutland armour scheme and the R&R are far to lightly armoured for the job. The only way the RN could prevent them to leave is to be able to slow them down to allow their slower ships to catch up. This is iffy in the time period so expect them to leave the treaties and start building battleships. The OTL Deutschlands were inferior to the R&R and the Hood as well as not too much better than the RN cruisers that would be hunting them so numbers could make up for their better armament.
What would be the limitations on Germany for other classes of warships?
Are there other things going on in this atl world that makes including Germany in the naval treaty attractive? Maybe the Soviets are building a fleet in the Baltic and Germany is seen as a counterweight? That is the first thing I can come up with.
Are there other things going on in this atl world that makes including Germany in the naval treaty attractive? Maybe the Soviets are building a fleet in the Baltic and Germany is seen as a counterweight? That is the first thing I can come up with.