Germano-Dutch Empire.

Van Owen

I want to get Germany and the Netherlands united, and in time for Germany to be able to be an active participant in the Empire building rush, rather than a latecomer. My idea is as follows:

During the 1848 revolution, France sends troops into the Netherlands to "keep order" and sets up camp, until the 1870s, when Prussia boots France out, and the result is the Netherlands becomes part of the German Empire, with Germany inheriting its empire, and adding more to it, like the historical possessions in East and West Africa, and the Germans also integrate the Boer republics. Being firmly entrenched in the NEI, Germany also acquires the Phillipines, either by Treaty with Spain, or by force, to prevent it from falling into other hands. It is possible that they end up going to war with the United States at sea over this, and having a bigger and better overseas navy than historical, they might just win.

This is, of course, rather rough. Can you guys help smooth it out a bit? I want to get an Empire that can give the British a run for their money...
 

Matthew Craw

If France is sending troops north to maintain order that must mean that france itself is not suffering anything like the instability of OTL, which implies a surviving Orleanist monarchy which would in turn be very unlikely to do anything this provocative. At any rate, in so drastically divergent an ATL the Franco-Prussian war becomes unlikely, at least in the form we know from OTL.

If you're willing to go much farther back avoiding the Habsburg aquisition of Spain might work - this would leave the Habsburgs with a more Dutch upbringing and outlook and almost certainly prevent a successful Dutch revolt in the first place, whilst also leaving Charles and his successors better placed to establish their authority over the Imperial Princes. This unified Germany/Netherlands would also be in place early enough to participate more fully in the earlier and, IMHO, more interesting phases of Euopean imperialism
 

Wendell

It won't happen in the New World.

Van Owen said:
I want to get Germany and the Netherlands united, and in time for Germany to be able to be an active participant in the Empire building rush, rather than a latecomer. My idea is as follows:

During the 1848 revolution, France sends troops into the Netherlands to "keep order" and sets up camp, until the 1870s, when Prussia boots France out, and the result is the Netherlands becomes part of the German Empire, with Germany inheriting its empire, and adding more to it, like the historical possessions in East and West Africa, and the Germans also integrate the Boer republics. Being firmly entrenched in the NEI, Germany also acquires the Phillipines, either by Treaty with Spain, or by force, to prevent it from falling into other hands. It is possible that they end up going to war with the United States at sea over this, and having a bigger and better overseas navy than historical, they might just win.

This is, of course, rather rough. Can you guys help smooth it out a bit? I want to get an Empire that can give the British a run for their money...
Click to expand...
The Americans will surely grab the Dutch Antillies and Suriname. Count on Britain to back up that claim ;)

Now, might all of New Guinea be German in such a scenario?
 

Van Owen

A different Germany

One thought I had was for Germany to be unified at the Congress of Vienna by Blucher. In this scenario, William III is deposed after the defeats in the Napoleonic War, and Blutcher rallies the nation. At the Congress, his popularity allows Germany to be unified, helped by the fact he pulled Wellington's nuts out of the fire at Waterloo, and was by accounts, popular with the Austrians. France, of course, really doesn't have a voice. I'm thinking now, that maybe in 1848, Germany becomes a republic, with German Nationalism a binding force. I haven't worked out how get the Netherlands part of Germany yet, however.
 

jolo

WI the Frankfurt Convention had been a little bit faster, a little bit more pragmatic, a little bit better in dealing with pro-monarchy members.

Then we'd have a united Germany in 1848 instead of 1871. Germany might go through a phase of civil unrest or even a little outside intervention (there was already a war agains the Danish or the Swedes at that time), but after that is settled there should be at least the territories of later West Germany united, very likely a few more places (the rest of Prussia, Austria, maybe also some of the non-German parts of Austria-Hungary like Czechoslovakia or even Hungary). As the Swiss were successfull in this revolution and predominantly German, there might also be some kind of union with them - neutrality was already an old tradition then, but traditions weren't really the top agenda at that time.

I'm not sure about the Netherlands - just 42 years ago, they did belong to the HRE, which basically was a German Empire at that time. Let's just suppose this Union doesn't happen, due to outside pressure or whatever.

Being United 23 years earlier would probably also mean catching up with the West in terms of industrialization and economics earlier. Furthermore, there would probably not be that much militarism, which would be good for the economy, for diplomacy and so on. Also, at that time much more potential colonies were up for grabs - the competition with France would probably also push Germany on this path. Democratic tendencies would probably be far stronger. Applying sth. like swiss Neutrality would be impossible - a country of that size is by definition not neutral - it's an independent power at best.

The question is, how much this Germany is able to reform - it would need to reduce the number of states and part the big states. It would need to create a common market and harmonize laws. It would need to take away a lot of power from the states, and it would need to create a fully functioning governmental system from scratch. If any of them fails, Germany will fall apart like the HRE after some time.

If it succeeds, it could become sth. like the US of Central Europe and surpass even GB after some time.
 

jolo

Hermanubis said:
This just struck me as a really, really weird thing to say about Germany…
Click to expand...

With West I mean France and Great Britain. At that time, there was not Eastern and Western Europe, but Eastern, Central, and Western Europe.

Also, Germany had a real burst of economic and industrial development after the unification under Prussia - though this process started before.

Or what do you mean?
 

Hermanubis

jolo said:
With West I mean France and Great Britain. At that time, there was not Eastern and Western Europe, but Eastern, Central, and Western Europe.

Also, Germany had a real burst of economic and industrial development after the unification under Prussia - though this process started before.

Or what do you mean?
Click to expand...
Well, you kind of made it sound like it was Japan, or the Ottoman Empire or something…
 

Romulus Augustulus

See this thread on such a topic.

It focuses more on the linguistics of a constructed German language used in such a state, but I think the POD (United Netherlands included in the Germanic Confederation at the Conference of Vienna 1815, leading to a federal Germany which includes Germany, the Netherlands and Austria after the Revolutions of 1848) is much more realistic and sensible.
 

wkwillis

Okay. The Belgian revolution spreads. Prussia decides to side with France in annexing the French speaking slice of Belgium in return for the Dutch speaking areas. Britain, Russia, and Austria get involved and the German states are united under the Netherlands instead of Prussia.
Germany becomes an industrial power and is already a colonial power.
 
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