I first put this in the After 1900s category by accident, but here we go in the right place. I am trying to make a timeline where a Germanic Empire is dominant in Europe for a loooong time. Anybody have any suggestions? PODs? I think the "Franks don't get dominance, Germanic's do" POD might be sufficient?
Germanic (Saxon/Frisian/etc.) empire in Europe
- Thread starter Communist Wizard
- Start date
They did OTL get a long time dominant Empire in Europe. In some way they still are. The Franks were originally a germanic tribe you know (of course you do!).
Hapsburg
Banned
What if, perhaps, Otto the Great refuses the Imperial title, and rebuffs the pope, preferring to continue his father's dream of a powerful and cohesive german state. He then concentrates on centralizing power in Germany, placing his brothers or sons on the various ducal thrones, and secularising german territories rather than giving large tracts of land to the bishoprics. The pope instead gives the Imperial title to either the King of France or to the ruler of a (Rump)Kingdom of Italy.
Otto's saxon-led Kingdom of Germany could theoretically dominate trade along the baltic and north seas, and become very powerful as a large swathe of territory in central europe which has a large population and, now, a cohesive structure.
Perhaps, through bloodlines, the ducal thrones merge into one royal throne. Perhaps, just like in spain, the King of the most powerful regional body will claim the title "Emperor".
Otto's saxon-led Kingdom of Germany could theoretically dominate trade along the baltic and north seas, and become very powerful as a large swathe of territory in central europe which has a large population and, now, a cohesive structure.
Perhaps, through bloodlines, the ducal thrones merge into one royal throne. Perhaps, just like in spain, the King of the most powerful regional body will claim the title "Emperor".
An interesting and probably not used POD would be one where the franks of Clovis are defeated by the alamanni in the battle of Tolbiac in 496 (could be because the alamanni gets the help of Theoderic and a joint ostrogoth-alamanni army defeats at Tolbiac the Clovis troops), after this defeat Clovis confronts internal unrest that with the defeat at Tolbiac mades not possible to stop the invasion of Alamanni of frank territories.
Susano
Banned
Could people pleae stop confusing "German" and "Germanic"?
It really gets annoying! The Franks were a germanic people. The Saxons, Freesians, Thuringians, Bayuvarians etc were others. Nowadays, the Germans are a germanic people, as are the Dutch, the English and the Scandinavian peoples. So, please dont use the two terms interchangeable, because they are not!
Now, (thats particularily aimed at Habsburg), for some other Germanic nation than the Franks rising to dominance, one would need a PoD before the Franks did so, no? So that laves any PoD in the German (that is East Frankish) Kingdom rather useless.
So... argh! Just because English confuses the word doesnt mean it should be so difficult to keep them apart, no?
It really gets annoying! The Franks were a germanic people. The Saxons, Freesians, Thuringians, Bayuvarians etc were others. Nowadays, the Germans are a germanic people, as are the Dutch, the English and the Scandinavian peoples. So, please dont use the two terms interchangeable, because they are not!
Now, (thats particularily aimed at Habsburg), for some other Germanic nation than the Franks rising to dominance, one would need a PoD before the Franks did so, no? So that laves any PoD in the German (that is East Frankish) Kingdom rather useless.
So... argh! Just because English confuses the word doesnt mean it should be so difficult to keep them apart, no?
You have reason.
The franks were clearly part of germanic people, they were other of the germanic peoples that pressed against the roman frontiers (If I remember well for example Julianus defeated them in 357).
Sometimes because we associated Franks with the born of France we forgett this clear fact (franks are germanics).
I think possibily the thread should say an Empire of germanic people based his core in the territory of the actual Germany.
the Alamanni could be a good option with the POD at Tolbiac (in fact it would be interesting also by the fact that in Spain the name for Germany is Alemania that seemed originated by the name of this confederation of germanic tribes: the alamanni)
The franks were clearly part of germanic people, they were other of the germanic peoples that pressed against the roman frontiers (If I remember well for example Julianus defeated them in 357).
Sometimes because we associated Franks with the born of France we forgett this clear fact (franks are germanics).
I think possibily the thread should say an Empire of germanic people based his core in the territory of the actual Germany.
the Alamanni could be a good option with the POD at Tolbiac (in fact it would be interesting also by the fact that in Spain the name for Germany is Alemania that seemed originated by the name of this confederation of germanic tribes: the alamanni)
Oh, I'm sorry... Yes, I meant something on those lines. I'll consider both of those. Oooh... so hard to choose! Maybe I should do both... Oh, fine, your visions of grandeur of a thriving German Empire won me over... Otto the Great it is... and then I'll hop right on a Alamanni timeline. And now, I'm off to Wikipedia...Oh, and anyone how a map of how this Kingdom of Germany, with the POD at Otto's refusal of the Imperial throne, look like at the start?
Last edited:
OK, got a nice map. Now please give suggestions on expansion (I think England, the East, and Scandinavia, but you can suggest other things. YES, I plan on having New Germany somewhere over the Atlantic 
) and on other things. Thanks Hapsburg and Inaki for your help. OK, I'll start...
936- Otto the Great ascends the throne of the Kingdom of Germany. He, like his father, seeks to have a powerful German state and quickly starts centralising Germany. When the option of having him becoming Holy Emperor is presented by the pope, he refuses, as that would go against the centralisation process. He then proceeds to put his close relatives on the various ducal thrones of Germany, therefore seculiarising German territories.
937- The pope doesn't like the flat refusal that he just got from Otto the Great (still called this because he founded the German Empire that still stands today), so he offers the title to King Louis IV of France. He also tells Louis that this Kingdom of Germany will be a threat to him, and the Pope. Otto meanwhile goes about making his reforms and making sure everyone in German territory is loyal. He also makes up new rules to help the Kingdom. Louis tries to make the Pope be a little more friendly to the Germans. The Pope, however, still carries his dislike of Germany. Louis IV thinks a long and bloody war will break out if things go like this, but doesn't want to upset the Pope.
938- In Rammelsburg, Saxony, a rich silver vein is found. Officials get the news to Otto, who then orders mining in the area. Rammelsburg will continue to provide lots of silver, copper and lead and grow into a major mining town. A trading boom starts because of this. Now, Louis is more reluctant to wage war as it is unlikely he will get the mines anyway, and being cut-off from them is not good.
939-960s- Otto focuses his armies to the East, where he expands. He soon reaches the coast east of modern day (OTL) Denmark, and the Baltic sea. Interested by this new sea, he goes north up the Jutland peninsula, and east to the Baltic, using rivers to establish his authority in the new territories. His highly populated kingdom will not be hindered by a settlement programme, so he starts one. He has the army assert his law over an area. Then, in a couple of years it will become fully part of the German Kingdom.
960s- Italy in turmoil. Along with his relatives in power, he mounts a campaign in Italy. The Pope generally resents this, and advises Louis to got to war. Louis sees a golden opportunity and attacks. While he does get some victories, soon Otto's army draws out of Italy and engages Louis. Louis is driven back to the border and then some, and takes OTL Belgium and the French side of the Channel. Louis ultimately retreats, and peace is declared. The army floods in to claim the new territories. This, along with the Baltic Sea, starts German interest in a navy. Also, this brings to Ottos attention a certain island off of the coast of France...
) and on other things. Thanks Hapsburg and Inaki for your help. OK, I'll start...936- Otto the Great ascends the throne of the Kingdom of Germany. He, like his father, seeks to have a powerful German state and quickly starts centralising Germany. When the option of having him becoming Holy Emperor is presented by the pope, he refuses, as that would go against the centralisation process. He then proceeds to put his close relatives on the various ducal thrones of Germany, therefore seculiarising German territories.
937- The pope doesn't like the flat refusal that he just got from Otto the Great (still called this because he founded the German Empire that still stands today), so he offers the title to King Louis IV of France. He also tells Louis that this Kingdom of Germany will be a threat to him, and the Pope. Otto meanwhile goes about making his reforms and making sure everyone in German territory is loyal. He also makes up new rules to help the Kingdom. Louis tries to make the Pope be a little more friendly to the Germans. The Pope, however, still carries his dislike of Germany. Louis IV thinks a long and bloody war will break out if things go like this, but doesn't want to upset the Pope.
938- In Rammelsburg, Saxony, a rich silver vein is found. Officials get the news to Otto, who then orders mining in the area. Rammelsburg will continue to provide lots of silver, copper and lead and grow into a major mining town. A trading boom starts because of this. Now, Louis is more reluctant to wage war as it is unlikely he will get the mines anyway, and being cut-off from them is not good.
939-960s- Otto focuses his armies to the East, where he expands. He soon reaches the coast east of modern day (OTL) Denmark, and the Baltic sea. Interested by this new sea, he goes north up the Jutland peninsula, and east to the Baltic, using rivers to establish his authority in the new territories. His highly populated kingdom will not be hindered by a settlement programme, so he starts one. He has the army assert his law over an area. Then, in a couple of years it will become fully part of the German Kingdom.
960s- Italy in turmoil. Along with his relatives in power, he mounts a campaign in Italy. The Pope generally resents this, and advises Louis to got to war. Louis sees a golden opportunity and attacks. While he does get some victories, soon Otto's army draws out of Italy and engages Louis. Louis is driven back to the border and then some, and takes OTL Belgium and the French side of the Channel. Louis ultimately retreats, and peace is declared. The army floods in to claim the new territories. This, along with the Baltic Sea, starts German interest in a navy. Also, this brings to Ottos attention a certain island off of the coast of France...
The point of giving large tracts of land to the bishoprics was that bishops could be expected to come out and fight for the Emperor, not having legal heirs, whereas secular lords could not. Even relatives were as likely to rebel in their own dynastic interests as to stay loyal.
Hapsburg
Banned
Wait, which part was aimed at me? It better not have been the first part, because I didn't confuse the two terms.
The problem is that the Pope would still bitch and cause the investiture controversy, which in restrospect was a very bad thing. At least with close relatives, brothers and sons, there's a possibility of dynastic familial loyalty coming into play.
Couple problems with this one.
1) To centralize, you need a bureucracy. At Otto's time, the bishops provided these. With the imperial crown, he got real power over them. Without it, the pope would or could crown someone else emperor who would (at least nominally) rule over them as well.
2) Without Otto being emperor, the chances are very good that Berengar II. of Italy would be crowned (it is still "Emperor of the Romans", remember). France is completely out of the picture here.
3) There is no reason to go east yet - at least not farther than historically - roughly today's eastern border of the FRG. If you want a "highly populated" kingdom, you need to go a few generations ahead.
4) You are greatly, greatly overestimating the ability to centralize at a time when the feudal system was seen as progressive.
Oh... Fine, I give up... I'm too newby to have a normal TL... Thanks for showing me my faults...
Yes, I've been a forum member since, I forget but it's up in the heading. I haven't even attempted a TL publicly. Susano isn't blasting your ideas. He's nitpicking. We do that here, because having a solid lexicon is important to convey ideas about a vast a subject as history. The Germans are a nation more or less born in the middle ages, while the Germanics were a family of tribal proto-nations. At least that's the context here. "Germans" and "Germanics" can have other definitions, mainly linguistic. But, hey, we try.
@Susano: I don't think he meant "Germanic" in the first place.
But, then again, the Germans were from the biggining a fusion of multiple tribes under the Frankish aegis. Non-Frisian Netherlands was the homeland of the Salian Franks themselves. The Rhine valley was inhabited by Ripuarian Franks (hence medieval 'Franconia'). Austria was colonized by the Bavarians. Hesse gets its name from the Chattians, a tribe affiliated with the Franks and mentioned as early as Augustus' time (I think they were allied with the Cheruscians). The modern Bundesland of Thuringia was named after the Thuringians who lived there. Iñaki's Allamans lived in medieval Swabia, which today is the south of Baden-Württemberg and German Switzerland. The whole north of German was settled by the Saxons, although other Germans also participated in the colonization of the northeast. Oh, and Schleswig-Holstein was the homeland of the Angles. There are plenty of other proto-nations that could've dominated Germany other than the Saxons. Or as CW suggests, perhaps Saxony could've founded a cohesive Royal Germany, rather than a fractive Imperial one. Standard German is decended from Ripuarian, but in this world, perhaps it would've been Plattdeutsch instead. However, just in case anyone asks, having a single nation conglomerizing all Germanic tribes, Frankish-lead, Insular, and Nordic, is ASB, IMO.
@Susano: I don't think he meant "Germanic" in the first place.
But, then again, the Germans were from the biggining a fusion of multiple tribes under the Frankish aegis. Non-Frisian Netherlands was the homeland of the Salian Franks themselves. The Rhine valley was inhabited by Ripuarian Franks (hence medieval 'Franconia'). Austria was colonized by the Bavarians. Hesse gets its name from the Chattians, a tribe affiliated with the Franks and mentioned as early as Augustus' time (I think they were allied with the Cheruscians). The modern Bundesland of Thuringia was named after the Thuringians who lived there. Iñaki's Allamans lived in medieval Swabia, which today is the south of Baden-Württemberg and German Switzerland. The whole north of German was settled by the Saxons, although other Germans also participated in the colonization of the northeast. Oh, and Schleswig-Holstein was the homeland of the Angles. There are plenty of other proto-nations that could've dominated Germany other than the Saxons. Or as CW suggests, perhaps Saxony could've founded a cohesive Royal Germany, rather than a fractive Imperial one. Standard German is decended from Ripuarian, but in this world, perhaps it would've been Plattdeutsch instead. However, just in case anyone asks, having a single nation conglomerizing all Germanic tribes, Frankish-lead, Insular, and Nordic, is ASB, IMO.
Hapsburg
Banned
Oh, stop whining. You know what he meant, didn't ye?The main problem would be that he still confuses German and Germanic, of course
OK...
Well, yes... I mean something more like German... How about the Saxons dominating Europe... dominating, mind you. What we can have is them having this at their peak:
Help me please...
Well, yes... I mean something more like German... How about the Saxons dominating Europe... dominating, mind you. What we can have is them having this at their peak:
Help me please...