Gas used in WWII

[Chengar Qordath]

During WWII the warring powers all had substantial poison gas stockpiles, but also had a "no first use" policy. Under what circumstances would any of the powers have used gas, and how would it effect the outcome of the war?

A few ideas...

1: In the event of Operation Marine-mammal-which-shall-not-be-mentioned I believe I recall Churchill saying that Britain would use gas to defend Britain itself from invasion.

2: Possible use of gas in the latter part of the BoB, a gas attack probably would have caused massive civilian casualties in London.

3: Use is quite possible on the Eastern Front, especially as an attempt to salvage the situation once it begins detiorating.

4: The US was considering breaking it's no first use policy if an invasion of the Japanese Home Islands was neccesary.

Anyone else care to offer thoughts on the matter?

 

[Mike Stearns]

What about gassing the defenders of the D-Day invasion beaches? Would that have made things easier or more complicated?

 

[SirCliveWolfe]

During WWII the warring powers all had substantial poison gas stockpiles, but also had a "no first use" policy. Under what circumstances would any of the powers have used gas, and how would it effect the outcome of the war?

A few ideas...

1: In the event of Operation Marine-mammal-which-shall-not-be-mentioned I believe I recall Churchill saying that Britain would use gas to defend Britain itself from invasion.

Well if the Germans had got past the 'Greek fire' that was going to surround parts of southern England... then it may have happened, also Churchil may not have been too worried about upsetting the US, as if Britain is occupied the US many not enter the war anyway.

2: Possible use of gas in the latter part of the BoB, a gas attack probably would have caused massive civilian casualties in London.

I don't know why but I think not... I have no evidence but just don't think it would have happened.

3: Use is quite possible on the Eastern Front, especially as an attempt to salvage the situation once it begins detiorating.

Possible, but it depends upon what the size of retaliation on the part of the USSR would have been

4: The US was considering breaking it's no first use policy if an invasion of the Japanese Home Islands was neccesary.

No idea really, I suppose they did use an atom bomb so they may have considered it at least.

Anyone else care to offer thoughts on the matter?

Interesting question, just a quick question are you the same Chengar as on the Paradox forums?

Sir C.

 

[Soyuz]

POD: Hitler isn't gassed during ww1.

German generals in the East actually pleaded Hitler to use gas to fight the partisans - illegal warfare vs illegal warfare. However Hitler refused.

 

[Tom_B]

Tiger Moth trainers were to have delivered mustard gas on the German beachheads if Sea Lion was attempted. I am not sure if this was to be the sulfur mustards of World War or the nitrogen mustards developed after the war.

The Japanese gas mask did not filter out cyanide gas and the Americans were seriously looking at using it to clear the beaches.

The Germans had tabun and sarin nerve gases which are deadlier than anything in the Allied stockpile. If they used those on London casualties would've been gross. The more "conventional" tactic for using gas against a city is to drop some mustard gas along with fire bombs to severely impair the firefighters.

Using gas in a highly mobile situation is tricky. One place gas may have served the Germans well is at Kursk, however by that time in the war the Allies had overall air superiority and that gives them many more options in gas warfare.

Tom

 

[Mort]

Its not Generally know, but gas was used during WWII. The Germans used it when making Landings at the Crimea in Russia. This is possibly the only recorded use of Gas during the war. The used it against defenders in the city of Stevastopol, i believe.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

Just a quick question are you the same Chengar as on the Paradox forums?

I am. Unless someone has copied my name without my knowledge, any Chengar Qordath you run into on the internet is the same person, me.

D-Day is an interesting idea for first use, but I would think that the Allies would not have violated their no first use policy at that time. Maybe if the the landings were really bogging down and on the verge of being thrown back, but as long as the Allies have an advantage in conventional warfare I would imagine they would not try to change the dynamic.

Mort, any more information on the use of gas in Crimea?

Tom B has a decent point that gas is much less effective in mobile warfare than static. Stalingrad would likely be an ideal time to use it, that bogged down urban brawl with house-to-house fighting is a good situation to use gas in.

Use against partisans would be interesting, but I would think gas would not be that useful against them, wouldn't the partisans have attacked and withdrawn before the gas could be delivered?

Another problem with use of poison gas is that once an army is equipped with protection against it the effect is minimal. I would think Germany would probably do best with military use of gas, as nerve gas is can kill if it comes into contact with any exposed skin, I don't think the Allies and Soviets have prepared equipment that covered the entire body.

Presumably the first user of gas would give out gas protection to their soldiers before attacking; both to prevent casualties from if the wind shifts the wrong way, and because gas retaliation will be swift. Does anyone know how long it would take after the first use of gas to equip the frontline soldiers with protection?

 

[BrianP]

There were the Japanese fugo balloons over the United States. It was feared the could carry gas or biologicals.

 

[NHBL]

Perhaps by accident...

Suppose that a British depot where gas is stored is hit by a stray bomb. The people who knew that there was a large supply of gas are killed by the bomb or the gas. Before any of the few people who knew that there was a gas depot at Base X find out about the accident, retaliation is on the way to Germany in retaliation for the supposed gassing. The Germans are taken by surprise at the treacherous gas attack, and retaliate for the British "first use."
From there, there's no going back...
Naturally, this could happen among any two nations...

 

[pisces74]

I am. Unless someone has copied my name without my knowledge, any Chengar Qordath you run into on the internet is the same person, me.

Google yourself and find out. I appear to be the only male Pisces74 on the planet..... I don't quite know how I feel about that yet

 

[LordKalvan]

Both sides chose to forgo geneva convention, and both of them applied forbidden practices in warfare (I hope that noone is going to tell me that the use of the A-bomb or of phosphorus bombs against cities and civilian targets is an acceptable practice). IMHO, the use of poisonous gas on the warfront would have been a very minor breach of etiquette, compared to what really happened. Most reasonable hypothesis is that gas is not very effective in a mobile warfare.
As usual, the story is written by the victors, and they ivide the good guys from the bad guys.

 

[Mort]

Well, Heres one story:

"On December 2nd, 1943, German bombers attacked American tankers and munitions ships in Bari Harbor off the southeast coast of Italy. They sank sixteen ships, partially destroyed four more, and set off at least two major explosions. The fires burned while hundreds of oil-soaked men were pulled out of the water.

At first, many of the survivors seemed to be all right, though a few mentioned the odd smell of garlic. Soon they began showing symptoms -- stinging eyes, skin lesions, a variety of internal problems. Four survivors died later the first day, nine the next. By the end of a month 83 men, out of the 617 who'd made it to the hospital, had died. Something bad was going on.

One of the ships, it seems, had held 100 tons of mustard gas. Later, the Army claimed it'd been there as a deterrent -- a deterrent which had inexplicably been made top secret. We were lucky that most of the mustard gas burned off in the fires. The small part of it that'd been absorbed into floating oil was what did all the damage. And so this Bay of Bari incident produced the only mustard gas casualties in WW-II -- Americans killed by American gas. "

 

[Mort]

This all i could find about the gas attack in Russia, but my Maps of WWII book at home expalins it much better:

1941-11-16–1942-07-04 Siege of Sevastopol — Germans use poison gas to flush Soviet defenders from bunkers and caves

 

[Mort]

Two Last stories, i find these quite Intresting:

The Japanese used mustard gas and the recently-developed blister agent Lewisite against Chinese troops. During these attacks, the Japanese also employed biological warfare by intentionally spreading cholera, dysentery, typhoid, bubonic plague, and anthrax.
In 1944, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni, the senior Islamic religious authority of the Palestinian Arabs and close ally of Adolf Hitler, sponsored an unsuccessful chemical warfare assault on the Jewish community in Palestine. Five parachutists were supplied with maps of Tel Aviv, canisters of a German–manufactured "fine white powder," and instructions from the Mufti to dump chemicals into the Tel Aviv water system.