(disclaimer: I've no intentions to start a mideast flamewar here, OK ?) Was there any way at some point during the 1930s or the WWII yrs that the Palestinian Arab population, led by the virulently anti-Jewish Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Hajj Amin al-Husseini and his family, could've orchestrated a massive pogrom against the relatively small Jewish population of the time living within Palestine ? Could such Arab persecution of the Jews have reached the level of a Final Solution within the British Mandate's borders ? OTL, the Grand Mufti was very favourable towards Hitler's anti-Semitism, and apparently visited Auschwitz in order to take back Nazi expertise on mass murder to Palestine, where he intended to establish a similar extermination camp. Or would British security forces and mandate authorities, and the YISHUV's self-defence forces such as the HAGANAH, have been able to successfully defend against any Arab attacks of a genocidal nature ?
Final Solution in Palestine during 1930s/WWII
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
I think this very could have happened if the Germans gained an upper hand in North Africa. They would have found many willing allies and executioners among Palestinian Arabs. Also, unless I am wrong the Germans made several "outreach efforts" to other Moslem peoples to assist their wars against the Soviets and western allies. I also believe Hitler himself expressed some admiration for Islam (emphasizing all the warlike stuff while ignoring all the merciful god stuff) and compared it favorably with Christianity.
HANDSCHAR
Yeah that's true Zoomar, Hitler and the Nazis did all they could to court the Muslims during WWII, as well as liaising closely with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem: Bosnian Muslims were strongly encouraged to enlist in the WAFFEN SS, in such formations as the SS HANDSCHAR Div, whose members wore the fez and were earmarked for anti-partisan operations against the hated Serbs. Himmler and Hitler viewed these Slavic Muslims as being the descendants of the last true Goths who'd settled in the Balkans AFAIK.
I also agree with your statement that a Final Solution in Palestine could be more likely with greater German success in North Africa (but would Erwin Rommel, based on his sense of honour as a soldier and his distaste for the Nazis' methods, have opposed any Nazi policies to systematically round up and exterminate the Jews in Palestine ?) However, by 1942, any EINSATZGRUPPEN deployed to hunt down Jews in Palestine, and any fanatical Arabs loyal to al-Husseini's cause, would've been hit pretty hard by the Zionist fighters of the HAGANAH and PALMACH who would've fought to the death, since they had nothin' to lose by fighting for their lives, and given the Germans and Arabs hell in guerilla warfare and urban firefights.
Yeah that's true Zoomar, Hitler and the Nazis did all they could to court the Muslims during WWII, as well as liaising closely with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem: Bosnian Muslims were strongly encouraged to enlist in the WAFFEN SS, in such formations as the SS HANDSCHAR Div, whose members wore the fez and were earmarked for anti-partisan operations against the hated Serbs. Himmler and Hitler viewed these Slavic Muslims as being the descendants of the last true Goths who'd settled in the Balkans AFAIK.
I also agree with your statement that a Final Solution in Palestine could be more likely with greater German success in North Africa (but would Erwin Rommel, based on his sense of honour as a soldier and his distaste for the Nazis' methods, have opposed any Nazi policies to systematically round up and exterminate the Jews in Palestine ?) However, by 1942, any EINSATZGRUPPEN deployed to hunt down Jews in Palestine, and any fanatical Arabs loyal to al-Husseini's cause, would've been hit pretty hard by the Zionist fighters of the HAGANAH and PALMACH who would've fought to the death, since they had nothin' to lose by fighting for their lives, and given the Germans and Arabs hell in guerilla warfare and urban firefights.
Melvin, Your comments about Rommel are perhaps right, but so much of what we think we know about him and his supposedly anti-Hitler views are hopelessly clouded by postwar US and British attempts to have there be "good Germans" in WW2 since we were then recruting them as allies against the USSR. No doubt he was chivalrous and moral in his dealings with western POW's - we have no reason to know how he might have reacted toward SS and Muslim excesses against Palestinian Jews.
The whole idea of a partisan war between the Palestinian Jews and Muslims (supported their German occupiers) against the broader background of the British-German srugggle would be an interesting basis for AH fiction. Here's an interesting idea - maybe the Nazis, with their cruel sense of irony might begin deporting European Jews to concentration (later death) camps in Palestine.
The whole idea of a partisan war between the Palestinian Jews and Muslims (supported their German occupiers) against the broader background of the British-German srugggle would be an interesting basis for AH fiction. Here's an interesting idea - maybe the Nazis, with their cruel sense of irony might begin deporting European Jews to concentration (later death) camps in Palestine.
Short of a German victory in North Africa, would the British have allowed this to happen? Would they have been in a position to prevent it? I'd guess that if large numbers of armed Muslims were to attack Jewish settlers, the British authorities would put a stop to it (see their Palestine policy hiow you want, but they won't accept the "we're not fighting you, we just want to kill these folks here" line the Mufti will undoubtedly try. It never worked in India). If they found their forces inadequate to the purpose, wouldn't the most likely outcome be an alliance of convenience between the Jews and the Brits? Jewish settlers had competent guerilla organisations at the time, and they certainly had more in common in terms of interests, culture and sympathies with the British than the Arabs.
Where does that leave us post-WWII? With the Palestinian population tarred with the nazi brush, would the British allow unlimited Jewish immigration? Israel without a UN partition scheme, but with a strong Western ally?
Where does that leave us post-WWII? With the Palestinian population tarred with the nazi brush, would the British allow unlimited Jewish immigration? Israel without a UN partition scheme, but with a strong Western ally?
At the least, most of the Palestinian leadership dead, perhaps including the Mufti himself. Of course, going on records, this might not be so bad for the Palestinians in a few years.
Also, they have a better idea of what combat actually entails. If they can ACT on this knowledge they may be stronger in 1948. If not, the internal phase of combat after the UN voted to partition may be dramatically reduced.
The Jews have better training, and, more importantly, actual experience and a MUCH better supply of weaponry. Perhaps a Jewish brigade even gets to do some serious fighting. We should remember the dramatic change in the British government in 1945, so there might be some real feelings of betrayal when Churchill is ousted. Alternately, the British officers and politicians who fought in WWII alongside the Jews might be a stronger advocacy for them.
Probably a larger number of Jews gets to what is now Israel, but how many more? I would anticipate the British letting a number in, while using the threat of millions more arriving to hold the Arabs in line.
Perhaps another one to two hundred thousand Jews survive and make it by 1945, but the real issue is whether the British feel sufficiently betrayed by the Mufti or grateful to the Jews.
Also, they have a better idea of what combat actually entails. If they can ACT on this knowledge they may be stronger in 1948. If not, the internal phase of combat after the UN voted to partition may be dramatically reduced.
The Jews have better training, and, more importantly, actual experience and a MUCH better supply of weaponry. Perhaps a Jewish brigade even gets to do some serious fighting. We should remember the dramatic change in the British government in 1945, so there might be some real feelings of betrayal when Churchill is ousted. Alternately, the British officers and politicians who fought in WWII alongside the Jews might be a stronger advocacy for them.
Probably a larger number of Jews gets to what is now Israel, but how many more? I would anticipate the British letting a number in, while using the threat of millions more arriving to hold the Arabs in line.
Perhaps another one to two hundred thousand Jews survive and make it by 1945, but the real issue is whether the British feel sufficiently betrayed by the Mufti or grateful to the Jews.
Dunash
Banned
The AH book "The Moscow Option" has Rommell (or is it Heydrich?) sniped to death whilst on his victory ride to Jerusalem by the Stern Gang. If united, the Jewish groups would put up a hell of a fight. They weren't averse to shooting up whole trains and villages and prisoners when the fight became existential. The 400,000 Jews then in Palestine were all Zionist volunteers of white-faced Ashkenazic-German-Polish origin and were much more intrepid than the 1 million sallow-skinned Sefardic Jews who came only perforce after 1948 after being expelled from the Arab countries.
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"Himmler and Hitler viewed these Slavic Muslims as being the descendants of the last true Goths who'd settled in the Balkans AFAIK."
That's certainly...interesting.
"The 400,000 Jews then in Palestine were all Zionist volunteers of white-faced Ashkenazic-German-Polish origin and were much more intrepid than the 1 million sallow-skinned Sefardic Jews who came only perforce after 1948 after being expelled from the Arab countries."
Umm...how is that relevant?
Here's an idea. Perhaps, if Sephardim start getting subjected to Nazi BS, they could disguise themselves as Arabs (they're more Arab-like in appearance than European Jews and probably can speak Arabic) and do covert-ops type stuff. Perhaps even cause a rift between the Germans and their Nazi allies--if some Sephardim disguised as Arabs kill some important Germans, the Mufti's going to have some 'splaining to do.
That's certainly...interesting.
"The 400,000 Jews then in Palestine were all Zionist volunteers of white-faced Ashkenazic-German-Polish origin and were much more intrepid than the 1 million sallow-skinned Sefardic Jews who came only perforce after 1948 after being expelled from the Arab countries."
Umm...how is that relevant?
Here's an idea. Perhaps, if Sephardim start getting subjected to Nazi BS, they could disguise themselves as Arabs (they're more Arab-like in appearance than European Jews and probably can speak Arabic) and do covert-ops type stuff. Perhaps even cause a rift between the Germans and their Nazi allies--if some Sephardim disguised as Arabs kill some important Germans, the Mufti's going to have some 'splaining to do.
Ironically, this would probably be "better" for the Jews in Israel in the long run. They would have been able to fend off the Arab attacks, I think, especially if the British get uppity about the link to Nazis (although they didn't care much IOTL, but perhaps a more forward policy by the Mufti would be beyond the line, as has been suggested).
More Jewish immigration is allowed into Israel, for sure, to fight the Arabs, who are now recognized as Nazi allies (any smart British officer, no matter how anti-Semitic he is, will realize that once the Jews are gone he's next on the Mufti's hit-list; and besides, why not let the Jews do the fighting for him?). And when the immigrants get there, they're given a gun and told that there are Nazis here they can shoot back against. An army of zealots flowing in at a constant rate, legally and with British logistical support. Sounds like bad news for the Mufti -- which is probably why he didn't engage in this tactic IOTL.
After the war, no partition plan -- or, if there is one, it's far less generous but the Arabs take it (IOTL, they thought they could beat the Jews; ITTL, the Jews are better armed and in greater control of key strategic points, and with greater international sympathy). Jordan absorbs those Israeli Arabs that don't want to be part of Israel, rather than using them as pawns as IOTL.
Beyond that, butterflies and a desire to avoid a flamewar keep me from further speculation.
More Jewish immigration is allowed into Israel, for sure, to fight the Arabs, who are now recognized as Nazi allies (any smart British officer, no matter how anti-Semitic he is, will realize that once the Jews are gone he's next on the Mufti's hit-list; and besides, why not let the Jews do the fighting for him?). And when the immigrants get there, they're given a gun and told that there are Nazis here they can shoot back against. An army of zealots flowing in at a constant rate, legally and with British logistical support. Sounds like bad news for the Mufti -- which is probably why he didn't engage in this tactic IOTL.
After the war, no partition plan -- or, if there is one, it's far less generous but the Arabs take it (IOTL, they thought they could beat the Jews; ITTL, the Jews are better armed and in greater control of key strategic points, and with greater international sympathy). Jordan absorbs those Israeli Arabs that don't want to be part of Israel, rather than using them as pawns as IOTL.
Beyond that, butterflies and a desire to avoid a flamewar keep me from further speculation.