A Byzantium rump state: the Patriarchal State (an Orthodox version of the Papal State). Having Constantinople turn into another holy city would be interesting, and it might even last if Russia was willing to protect it.
What impact would a long-lived Byzantium Empire have on Moscow and Russia as a whole? Moscow was sold as a third Rome, but if the second Rome lasted longer (or never fell), what role would Moscow and Russia have in the Orthodox World?
Depending on when Byzantium is saved, Russia may well still end up being the largest and most powerful Orthodox nation in the world.
What do the others think? In a world where the Byzantine Empire never falls and Russia never styles itself as the "Third Rome", will Russia unite or won't it?
With all due respect you guys pay too much attention to the fact that the title 'tsar' is derived from 'Caesar'.If Byzantium never falls, there will
be no concept of Russia being the "Third Rome" and probably no Russian tsardom
(the word "tsar" is, after all, derived from "caesar"). Without such a unifying
concept, it is doubtful that any of the Russian power centers can succeed in
uniting all the Russian lands as Muscovy eventually did IOTL. Russia may well remain divided between different polities into the modern age.
The concept of united Russia was extant well before the final fall of Constantinople, being present alongside Byzantium both during the days of the Kievan Rus' and the rise of Moscow (which began a little ways before 1453). If the PoD occurs during one of these periods, Russia is arguably stronger than Byzantium (definitely stronger during the rise of Moscow, arguably so during the Kievan Rus), and has near limitless potential for expansion into sparsely populated lands. Even if we set the PoD during the Mongol domination of Russia, Russian states still have a good deal more potential for expansion than do the Byzantines, so their becoming the most powerful Orthodox nation in the world after the year 1000 is, in my opinion, about as likely as not.Interestingly, I was about to ask the same question as the OP. Then I found this thread through a search.
I find that assertion problematic because in a world where the Byzantine Empire survives, it is very much an open question whether or not a united Russian state exists in the first place.
Medieval Russia was divided between different power centers such as Kiev, Novgorod and Vladimir-Suzdal, later Moscow. If Byzantium never falls, there will be no concept of Russia being the "Third Rome" and probably no Russian tsardom (the word "tsar" is, after all, derived from "caesar"). Without such a unifying concept, it is doubtful that any of the Russian power centers can succeed in uniting all the Russian lands as Muscovy eventually did IOTL. Russia may well remain divided between different polities into the modern age.
What do the others think? In a world where the Byzantine Empire never falls and Russia never styles itself as the "Third Rome", will Russia unite or won't it?
I stand by my fundamental point, though, that Russia unifying around the same time it did IOTL is not a historical inevitability. It might unify, or it might not. Whether it does probably has less to do with the fate of Byzantium, though, than with how the Mongol invasion and subsequent events play out. If the Mongol invasion and subsequent events unfold similarly to how they did IOTL, I think it is quite likely that one of the Russian states could through collaboration with and later rebellion against the Mongols become the power that unites Russia, as Muscovy did IOTL.
Assuming that Russia does unite, the interesting question is what happens next ITTL where the Byzantine Empire survives. While it is likely that an ever-expanding Russia will pretty soon surpass the Byzantines in terms of power and resources, Russia would not be the "Third Rome" in this scenario and I suspect that, in cultural and spiritual terms, Byzantium would still be regarded as the most important orthodox state. So Byzantium and Russia would have a very interesting relationship and rivalry ITTL.
My guess there is that it would be something akin to the US and Great Britain. The bigger and younger state not really wanting to admit how much it owes to the smaller, older state - but finding it to be something it has strong ties to nonetheless.
Not a perfect comparison, but something comparable if not identical seems right to me.
IOTL, Russia fought a dozen major wars against the Turks from the 16th century to World War I. Even into modern times, some Tsars dreamed about re-taking Constantinople for Orthodox Christianity. In a timeline where Byzantium survives, the Russians would focus the resources that historically went into the power struggle with the Turks elsewhere.Which raises an interesting point. OTL Russia saw itself as the one bulwark of true (Orthodox) Christianity. That won't be the case with a surviving Second Rome. That would influence Russia in some significant ways compared to OTL.
Well of course united Russia isn't inevitable. You will notice that the initial post of mine you quoted said "Depending on when Byzantium is saved", because there were definitely times when a united Orthodox Russia was the most likely outcome, but there were also times, especially during Mongol domination, when such an outcome was decidedly less likely. My point though, was that Russia has a very good chance, at least fifty fifty, of surpassing Byzantium in de facto power. Their access to vast resource rich regions to support industrialization and power projection gives them an edge that Byzantium, cut off from these regions by hostile powers, greater distance, and natural barriers, can't really match.@ Elfwine, Russian, Avitus:
You are right that the concept of uniting all Russian lands and the concept of Russia being the "Third Rome" are, of course, two separate issues and that maybe we should not place too much importance on the fact that "tsar" is derived from "caesar".
I stand by my fundamental point, though, that Russia unifying around the same time it did IOTL is not a historical inevitability. It might unify, or it might not. Whether it does probably has less to do with the fate of Byzantium, though, than with how the Mongol invasion and subsequent events play out. If the Mongol invasion and subsequent events unfold similarly to how they did IOTL, I think it is quite likely that one of the Russian states could through collaboration with and later rebellion against the Mongols become the power that unites Russia, as Muscovy did IOTL.
Assuming that Russia does unite, the interesting question is what happens next ITTL where the Byzantine Empire survives. While it is likely that an ever-expanding Russia will pretty soon surpass the Byzantines in terms of power and resources, Russia would not be the "Third Rome" in this scenario and I suspect that, in cultural and spiritual terms, Byzantium would still be regarded as the most important orthodox state. So Byzantium and Russia would have a very interesting relationship and rivalry ITTL.