European fascism without Hitler

[Basileus Giorgios]

A fairly simple question that might be an interesting discussion- imagine for whatever reason Hitler falls down the stairs in 1935 (give or take), and Nazism fades away to be replaced by whatever.

How does this effect, in particular, Italian fascism without having a world war to fight? And how about the regimes in Iberia- will they even take power without active Nazi support?

 

[West]

My money fascists will still be dicks just slightly less racist the. Otl

 

[Altzek]

Fascism will be far more popular, about as much if not more than stalinism, which today is fringe but not as much as fascism and nazism in particular.

The big historiographical stain on the ideology is the Holocaust, without it, people won't even be able to point out to an atrocity in particular which it committed.
Not that it didn't do anything, between White Terror in Spain, shoving into concentration camps in the scorching desert the Libyans and gassing the Ethiopians, it did plenty, but if most people aside from the victims and their descendents don't remember any of this today, there is no reason why they would be remembered ITTL.

 

[Ukrainian Victory]

A fairly simple question that might be an interesting discussion- imagine for whatever reason Hitler falls down the stairs in 1935 (give or take), and Nazism fades away to be replaced by whatever.

How does this effect, in particular, Italian fascism without having a world war to fight? And how about the regimes in Iberia- will they even take power without active Nazi support?

1935 is a bit too late: Firing the Jewish civil servants, boycotting Jewish businesses, the Nuremberg Laws, ... ; a future Nazi German leader likely won't undo these things.

But having Hitler be killed in 1923 would be delightful.

But Yeah, if by Fascism people think of Mussolini's Italy due to there not being a Nazi Germany, then a lot more people are going to be having attitudes similar to this:

Mussolini Did Nothing Wrong

Every so often some Berlusconi Bro praises Mussolini to some extent or another and invites a flurry of condemnation from the handshakeworthy set. This has just happened with Antonio Tajani, President of the European Parliament. And then, of course, there was Matteo Salvini\'s approving quotation...

www.unz.com

(I'm only posting this article to make a point. I'm certainly NOT endorsing this article! And Yes, I know that Unz is full of shit!)

Of course, Mussolini's mass murder of the Ethiopian cognitive elite could still ruin Fascism's reputation a bit once racism goes out of fashion, but still, it might unfortunately be dismissed as one minor blemish in an overall successful record.

 

[Aluma]

Of course, Mussolini's mass murder of the Ethiopian cognitive elite could still ruin Fascism's reputation a bit once racism goes out of fashion, but still, it might unfortunately be dismissed as one minor blemish in an overall successful record.

More like people will go "Ethiopia who?" "Why should I care about that african country?" then if pressed further expect whataboutism about the "democratic" British-French colonization of Africa and the US's presence in Liberia

 

[CASSICTOR2]

More like people will go "Ethiopia who?" "Why should I care about that african country?" then if pressed further expect whataboutism about the "democratic" British-French colonization of Africa and the US's presence in Liberia

Basically fascist will be more "tolerant" without Hitler and a lot more supporters in the right similar to what left wings to support Lenin or Castro

 

[Aluma]

Basically fascist will be more "tolerant" without Hitler and a lot more supporters in the right similar to what left wings to support Lenin or Castro

Yeah I can see Fascism and Bolivarian Socialism being rivals on who gets to bring the "third world" into their fold

 

[Ukrainian Victory]

Yeah I can see Fascism and Bolivarian Socialism being rivals on who gets to bring the "third world" into their fold

Ironically even in real life a lot of Third Worlders still like Hitler:

The Developing World Thinks Hitler Is Underrated

In the West, the Nazi Führer is thought of as a genocidal maniac — everywhere else, he’s considered a political inspiration.

foreignpolicy.com

 

[CASSICTOR2]

Ironically even in real life a lot of Third Worlders still like Hitler:

Now they will like Mussolini instead Hitler but even more with many dictatorships want to model themselves to fascist

The Developing World Thinks Hitler Is Underrated

In the West, the Nazi Führer is thought of as a genocidal maniac — everywhere else, he’s considered a political inspiration.

foreignpolicy.com

The most sane third Worlder

Yeah I can see Fascism and Bolivarian Socialism being rivals on who gets to bring the "third world" into their fold

I can see fascism will be "best alternative" to Communism.

Sadly most of them will pick fascism as they will be closer to the West or want to be independent of them meaning they want to be traditional in their culture but with the fascist look to it

 

[Aluma]

Ironically even in real life a lot of Third Worlders still like Hitler:

From what I've seen they just like that he was essencially a hobo who got absolute power and made his bankrupt country temporarily an quasi-superpower but not much else afterwards because nobody really cares about racial theories other than basement dwellers and Germany going to Hell after WWII isnt really very inspiring lol

Like a
"Damn Im broke why cant I become the dictator?"
"If only our leader was as determined as that guy, we'd be strong enough to try taking over the world instead of wondering about inflation"

 

[Colonel Zoidberg]

I presume that fascism still starts a war in Europe, but without the batshit insanity of Hitler, their gains are more modest and their defeat takes longer. Hitler’s worst move was pissing off Stalin; a rational German leader would have maintained neutrality and focused on conquering continental Europe, which they could have done by and large even if keeping it would have been challenging (evidently Nazi Germany was a bureaucratic nightmare internally; their survival would have depended on how well things were run back home.)

Meanwhile, fascism still gets a bad rep for what Japan does - people would say, “those Germans grew their lot in with the Japanese, and look what those people did.” I have no doubt there would be German atrocities, but nothing on the scale of the Holocaust; Japanese atrocities would be viewed in a worse light, and odds are Japan would have been made to pay for what they did more thoroughly. Today it would be highly Americanized and almost certainly a republic, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Okinawa was still a US territory. I wouldn’t even be surprised if Christianity was the dominant religion or at least as common as it is in OTL South Korea.

Fascism would fall out of favor but pop up here and there, and whatever flag the Germans fly as their fascist flag would probably be allowed and used by far-right parties.

Israel might be a loser in this situation, since it was the Holocaust that was a catalyst in its creation. It wouldn’t have that massive national scar and may exist in a smaller form.

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

Okay, so answers are seemingly focussed so far on the external perceptions of fascism, which I think I basically agree with. Indeed, I'm of the view that WW2 and the struggle against Naziism is so deeply embedded in the western psyche that our political cultures would be unimaginably different without it.

But more prosaically and practically - without WW2, can Italian fascism and more broadly hard right wing dictatorships proceed more or less indefinitely? Is fascist Italy, for example, more inherently stable than say Communist Poland?

 

[Post]

I have no doubt there would be German atrocities, but nothing on the scale of the Holocaust;

I'm not so sure, the likes of Himmler and Heydrich were not really better than Hitler (possibly even worse). And AFAIK Hitler never explicitly ordered the holoaust, it was done because they deemed it was what the Führer wanted ("der Führer entgegen werken"), and then I assume it's what they wanted to do anyway (otherwise if they didn't really want to do it, they would have only done it when explicitly ordered). The decision for the "Endlösung" was made at the Wannsee conference, led by Heydrich, Hitler wasn't present.

If you want to avoid the holocaust, I think you need to avoid the nazi's taking control. Hitler dying in 1935 is too late, the wheels were already in motion. The leaders of the SS wanted the jews (and other assorted minorities) dead.

 

[Comte de Geneve]

Hitler made no secret of his beliefs and plans, but without Hitler the likes of Himmler and Heydrich aren't getting into power. Fascism per se (Benny style) was ultra-nationalist and dictatorial but not necessarily any more anti-Semitic or racialist then the standard views of the national population (which is a low bar at that time and place).

 

[ReachODST]

Hitler made no secret of his beliefs and plans, but without Hitler the likes of Himmler and Heydrich aren't getting into power. Fascism per se (Benny style) was ultra-nationalist and dictatorial but not necessarily any more anti-Semitic or racialist then the standard views of the national population (which is a low bar at that time and place).

This is an important point, was Mussolini style fascism ultranationalist? And if so, by what metric?

I'm of the opinion, Italian, Austrian and British fascism's weren't ultranationalist, just typical ethnonationalism.

Whereas National Socialism and Legionaries were ultranationalist (fascisms).

 

[The Stormlord]

But more prosaically and practically - without WW2, can Italian fascism and more broadly hard right wing dictatorships proceed more or less indefinitely? Is fascist Italy, for example, more inherently stable than say Communist Poland?

Biggest point of tension is Yugoslavia and the Dalmatian/Slovenian territories. European powers won't care sufficiently enough about atrocities/wars in Africa to mobilise against it. If it survives to the 1950s the regime can exploit Western anticommunism and oil dividends to last a fair few decades, but oil in particular is setting it up for long term decline.

 

[BeardedHoplite]

Would almost entirely depend on how Mussolini's Italy develops, since they were essentially the only fascist country OTL and now they'd especially be examined to see how their ideology develops.

If everything stays calm and Italy sees growth and eventually reapproachment with France and Britian once the Ethiopian excursion fades from memory, you'd likely see a generation of leaders coming of age in the 1950s and 60s start to see fascism as a viable way to rule. If decolonialization happens on schedule, it would definitely have a big audience in Africa. South America might be able to find a few fascist regimes in this timeline

 

[CASSICTOR2]

Would almost entirely depend on how Mussolini's Italy develops, since they were essentially the only fascist country OTL and now they'd especially be examined to see how their ideology develops.

If everything stays calm and Italy sees growth and eventually reapproachment with France and Britian once the Ethiopian excursion fades from memory, you'd likely see a generation of leaders coming of age in the 1950s and 60s start to see fascism as a viable way to rule. If decolonialization happens on schedule, it would definitely have a big audience in Africa. South America might be able to find a few fascist regimes in this timeline

The third world will be a mixed bags between Communist and the Fascist movements spread about when they're become independent

 

[Crazy Boris]

The third world will be a mixed bags between Communist and the Fascist movements spread about when they're become independent

I wonder if a Cold War would still develop, but three-way between the USA and allies, USSR and allies, and whoever the dominant fascist power would be

 

[CASSICTOR2]

I wonder if a Cold War would still develop, but three-way between the USA and allies, USSR and allies, and whoever the dominant fascist power would be

It's obviously going to be Italy if they are competent enough to either stay out of the war or join the allies