Earliest possible unified Germany?

[deathscompanion1]

What is the earliest date that a state (not the HRE) could unite most of the German states into one nation?

A union of states is acceptable but it must be relatively cohesive.

 

[Pericles]

What is the earliest date that a state (not the HRE) could unite most of the German states into one nation?

A union of states is acceptable but it must be relatively cohesive.

Perhaps something with Charles V or going back Barbarous but you said no HRE...

 

[Theodoric]

Why wouldn't the HRE turning even more purely German count? I know ITOL it only became a looser and looser union after 1648, but that's not necessarily the case in an AH scenario.

 

[deathscompanion1]

Why wouldn't the HRE turning even more purely German count?

Mainly because I'm curious about what other opportunities for unification there were apart from the HRE.

Also I don't believe the HRE was really centralised enough on a permanent basis to really count.

 

[Hörnla]

This is far out but, I just try a sketch here.

A different Charles V is (totally OOC) an early adopter of Lutheran reform, leaves Spain and Italy to his brother Ferdinand (who distracts France) and thus gives priority to Germany.

He uses the rush in wealth from confiscated Church-property in order to put the noble dynasties of the HRE north of the Alps under quickly. Needless to say that he annexed the cleric states (Cologne, Mainz, Trier etc. etc.) first, the free cities generally feel loyal to the emperor anyways. Combined with the Habsburg lands he inherited, he is in an even better position at this point of time than the French Royal dynasty was.

Without the religious aspect, the Netherlands might remain a loyal asset for longer and could perhaps even be bound to Germany.

 

[deathscompanion1]

This is far out but, I just try a sketch here.

A different Charles V is (totally OOC) an early adopter of Lutheran reform, leaves Spain and Italy to his brother Ferdinand (who distracts France) and thus gives priority to Germany.

He uses the rush in wealth from confiscated Church-property in order to put the noble dynasties of the HRE north of the Alps under quickly. Needless to say that he annexed the cleric states (Cologne, Mainz, Trier etc. etc.) first, the free cities generally feel loyal to the emperor anyways. Combined with the Habsburg lands he inherited, he is in an even better position at this point of time than the French Royal dynasty was.

Without the religious aspect, the Netherlands might remain a loyal asset for longer and could perhaps even be bound to Germany.

Sounds interesting.

Keeping France occupied is always going to be vital to any unification.

 

[Umbral]

More successful Arminius founds a dynasty?

 

[Faeelin]

Also I don't believe the HRE was really centralised enough on a permanent basis to really count.

Well, the HRE existed until 1806, so you have pretty much eliminated any chances for early unification.

 

[deathscompanion1]

Well, the HRE existed until 1806, so you have pretty much eliminated any chances for early unification.

It could always die early or heavily reform. Wasn't it more or less only nominally in existence by that point?

 

[Hörnla]

It could always die early or heavily reform. Wasn't it more or less only nominally in existence by that point?

Just as the United Nations are only nominally in existence.

So, yes and no. It had a lot of working, although often Kafka-esque institutions which were deriled by some, but valued by others. It's proceedings as a feudal federation were sort of diplomatical pioneering work.
The whole construction fell apart when the French expansion in the Revolutionary Wars had to be taken into account after 1800 and borders were re-drawn almost monthly; cutting down the numbers of states considerably. So in its final years, it was really turning into a shell.

 

[deathscompanion1]

Just as the United Nations are only nominally in existence.

So, yes and no. It had a lot of working, although often Kafka-esque institutions which were deriled by some, but valued by others. It's proceedings as a feudal federation were sort of diplomatical pioneering work.
The whole construction fell apart when the French expansion in the Revolutionary Wars had to be taken into account after 1800 and borders were re-drawn almost monthly; cutting down the numbers of states considerably. So in its final years, it was really turning into a shell.

Interesting, I don't really know that much about German history always interested in finding out more though.

 

[NotYetRegistered]

1848 seems like a good date. I don't really know a lot about it, but wasn't Frederick of Prussia offered the crown of Germany?

 

[Hörnla]

Interesting, I don't really know that much about German history always interested in finding out more though.

You are welcome.

1848 seems like a good date. I don't really know a lot about it, but wasn't Frederick of Prussia offered the crown of Germany?

Yes, he was and he declined. He couldn't bring himself to accept a crown offered by revolutionaries.
The interesting thing is, as soon as the revolution had been put down, Prussia lobbied hard for another unification-concept. But by 1850, Austria was back on its legs and....not that enthusiastic.

If you look closely at the late 1860s, however, it becomes very interesting to note how the unification of 1870/71 is being prepared already.

 

[MrHaakwood]

You are welcome.



Yes, he was and he declined. He couldn't bring himself to accept a crown offered by revolutionaries.
The interesting thing is, as soon as the revolution had been put down, Prussia lobbied hard for another unification-concept. But by 1850, Austria was back on its legs and....not that enthusiastic.

If you look closely at the late 1860s, however, it becomes very interesting to note how the unification of 1870/71 is being prepared already.

Are you one of those guys who thinks Bismarck had a Masterplan?

 

[Janprimus]

This is far out but, I just try a sketch here.

A different Charles V is (totally OOC) an early adopter of Lutheran reform, leaves Spain and Italy to his brother Ferdinand (who distracts France) and thus gives priority to Germany.

He uses the rush in wealth from confiscated Church-property in order to put the noble dynasties of the HRE north of the Alps under quickly. Needless to say that he annexed the cleric states (Cologne, Mainz, Trier etc. etc.) first, the free cities generally feel loyal to the emperor anyways. Combined with the Habsburg lands he inherited, he is in an even better position at this point of time than the French Royal dynasty was.

Without the religious aspect, the Netherlands might remain a loyal asset for longer and could perhaps even be bound to Germany.

It doesn't sound too plausible. Besides another option could be that Ferdinand ends up with Austria & Burgundy/Burgundian Netherlands and that he would focus on the Empire instead. In fact Ferdinand was briefly considered as the candidate for the position of HRE instead of IOTL Charles V. Though later IOTL Ferdinand was elected as his successor and even governed the Empire in his brother's absence with great autonomy (however in certain matters Charles did want to keep a say.
Charles had inherited the Crown of Castille and the Crown of Aragon, which both were more valuable than the ancestral collection of lands of Austria-Burgundy. If you want to switch Charles and Ferdinand, then you probably need their grandfather Ferdinand of Aragon succeeding at making his grandson Ferdinand (who grew up in 'Spain') the heir to the Spanish kingdoms.
In which case Charles will keep the rest of the inheritance and he probably ends up marrying Anna of Bohemia-Hungary instead, which makes more sense if the dynastic policy is more focused on the HRE.

 

[deathscompanion1]

You are welcome.



Yes, he was and he declined. He couldn't bring himself to accept a crown offered by revolutionaries.
The interesting thing is, as soon as the revolution had been put down, Prussia lobbied hard for another unification-concept. But by 1850, Austria was back on its legs and....not that enthusiastic.

If you look closely at the late 1860s, however, it becomes very interesting to note how the unification of 1870/71 is being prepared already.

Not only that but France was a lot more stable as well so that's two major powers that would naturally oppose any unification able to do so again.

 

[Larus Marinus]

A different division of the Carolingian Empire and/or the Lotharingian partition could work. Perhaps something along the lines of Italy, Provence and the Imperial title going to West Francia and the rest going to East Francia, which would then probably develop into a Kingdom of Germany further down the line.

 

[deathscompanion1]

A different division of the Carolingian Empire and/or the Lotharingian partition could work. Perhaps something along the lines of Italy, Provence and the Imperial title going to West Francia and the rest going to East Francia, which would then probably develop into a Kingdom of Germany further down the line.

That's a lot earlier than I would have thought possible, the effects of a reasonably powerful German state that early would probably be huge.

 

[Janprimus]

A different division of the Carolingian Empire and/or the Lotharingian partition could work. Perhaps something along the lines of Italy, Provence and the Imperial title going to West Francia and the rest going to East Francia, which would then probably develop into a Kingdom of Germany further down the line.

Well West Francia would need at least the Provence, and preferably more from the kingdom of Burgundy to be able to play a direct role in Italy. East Francia OTOH had access to mountain passes to Italy.
Lotharingia (the Nothern part of Middle Francia) OTOH might be even easier to fall in the East Francian sphere (and possible union) ITTL with West Francia being much more embroiled in Burgundy & Italy. IOTL, East Francia & Italy > the HRE, only acquired Burgundy much later, for West Francia that isn't really an option.
Alternatively Lotharingia might survive, but that may bring a number of other issues and doesn't seem the most likely outcome.

 

[Kalan]

The best option would be that Otto I does not conquer Italy and doesn't form the HRE in the first place.

While it seemed like a good idea at the time, as it got him not only control the wealthiest region in western Europe, sweeping influence over the Church but also the prestige which was still associated with the title of the Roman Emperor. In the long run however the aquisition of Italy forced the Emperors to split their attention between Italy and Germany which in the end allowed both the German nobility and the Italian cities to gain more power at the expanse of the central power.

If this does not happen, e.g. because the Italian King Berengar is less agressive, does not bully the Pope to such an extent that he asks for the help of Otto, the the German Kings can concentrate on Germany proper which could well lead to an unification in the early middle ages. Whether this unification would lead to a more absolute state like France or a more limited monarchy like in England is up for debate.