Divide the United States into East and West.

[미래@]

I am envisioning a timeline in which the United States is divided by civil war, Japan's democracy survives, and the Cold War is fought between three powers: the United Kingdom, Japan, and the Soviet Union.

In this timeline, are there any scenarios that could eventually divide the United States into the map below?

Red is the socialist system and blue is the capitalist system.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

And grey means?

 

[미래@]

And grey means?

It is a territory occupied by an external force.

 

[EasternRomanEmpire]

I am envisioning a timeline in which the United States is divided by civil war, Japan's democracy survives, and the Cold War is fought between three powers: the United Kingdom, Japan, and the Soviet Union.

In this timeline, are there any scenarios that could eventually divide the United States into the map below?
View attachment 901862
Red is the socialist system and blue is the capitalist system.

I doubt it would remain as such, a communist US would try to conquer all of the US while the West Coast would be worried about a communist threat on its border.
Anyways Japan and the UK would collaborate against the USSR.

 

[RanulfC]

I am envisioning a timeline in which the United States is divided by civil war, Japan's democracy survives, and the Cold War is fought between three powers: the United Kingdom, Japan, and the Soviet Union.

In this timeline, are there any scenarios that could eventually divide the United States into the map below?
View attachment 901862
Red is the socialist system and blue is the capitalist system.

Pet Peeve Alert!

/rant incoming: No there is not way under your posted guidelines that would result in this map. Why? Because if the US was divided by a "Civil War" then all those nice straight-ish 'borders' between the States are gone! Sorry but I really dislike such "maps" because they don't reflect the scenario that most people (yourself included) want. While it makes drawing the map somewhat easier, it discounts such things as the terrain and likely "belief" boundaries where like minded people will tend to stick together rather than be divided by some arbitrary lines on a map. Then there are population numbers which are rather low towards the mid-west, and higher on the coasts
/rant over... Hopefully

As to how to get to the map that's a tougher one because getting America to violently splinter after 1900 is questionable. Prior to the Spanish-American war most people didn't identify as "Americans" but by what State they from. After the war it rapidly became common for people to identify as "American" first and State second.

As for the nature of the split given (Socialist and Capitalist) huge amount depends on what the side were for the "Civil War 2.0", when that took place and the general outcome. If you're wanting it to be Socialist versus Capitalist your going to have to explain how the split came about. It's not impossible to get a major "socialist" movement to gain popularity if some crisis happens which causes a lot of people to question the idea of American "freedom". One of my go-to examples is if the Great Depression is deeper and badly handled by the Federal Government a kind of "Christian Socialism" or "Christian Communism) is possible and could be popular enough to cause a split.
But in general it's very hard to give a good scenario when we don't know the full background.

Randy

 

[Insane Ranter]

I am envisioning a timeline in which the United States is divided by civil war, Japan's democracy survives, and the Cold War is fought between three powers: the United Kingdom, Japan, and the Soviet Union.

In this timeline, are there any scenarios that could eventually divide the United States into the map below?
View attachment 901862
Red is the socialist system and blue is the capitalist system.

The US doesn't buy the Louisiana Purchase....Mexico-American War gives them Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana.

 

[jacob ningen]

The US doesn't buy the Louisiana Purchase....Mexico-American War gives them Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana.

wrong era.

 

[jacob ningen]

Pet Peeve Alert!

/rant incoming: No there is not way under your posted guidelines that would result in this map. Why? Because if the US was divided by a "Civil War" then all those nice straight-ish 'borders' between the States are gone! Sorry but I really dislike such "maps" because they don't reflect the scenario that most people (yourself included) want. While it makes drawing the map somewhat easier, it discounts such things as the terrain and likely "belief" boundaries where like minded people will tend to stick together rather than be divided by some arbitrary lines on a map. Then there are population numbers which are rather low towards the mid-west, and higher on the coasts
/rant over... Hopefully

As to how to get to the map that's a tougher one because getting America to violently splinter after 1900 is questionable. Prior to the Spanish-American war most people didn't identify as "Americans" but by what State they from. After the war it rapidly became common for people to identify as "American" first and State second.

As for the nature of the split given (Socialist and Capitalist) huge amount depends on what the side were for the "Civil War 2.0", when that took place and the general outcome. If you're wanting it to be Socialist versus Capitalist your going to have to explain how the split came about. It's not impossible to get a major "socialist" movement to gain popularity if some crisis happens which causes a lot of people to question the idea of American "freedom". One of my go-to examples is if the Great Depression is deeper and badly handled by the Federal Government a kind of "Christian Socialism" or "Christian Communism) is possible and could be popular enough to cause a split.
But in general it's very hard to give a good scenario when we don't know the full background.

Randy

yeah the red would be grangist IMO ie bimetallic agrarian and concerned with riparian rights

 

[미래@]

Pet Peeve Alert!

/rant incoming: No there is not way under your posted guidelines that would result in this map. Why? Because if the US was divided by a "Civil War" then all those nice straight-ish 'borders' between the States are gone! Sorry but I really dislike such "maps" because they don't reflect the scenario that most people (yourself included) want. While it makes drawing the map somewhat easier, it discounts such things as the terrain and likely "belief" boundaries where like minded people will tend to stick together rather than be divided by some arbitrary lines on a map. Then there are population numbers which are rather low towards the mid-west, and higher on the coasts
/rant over... Hopefully

As to how to get to the map that's a tougher one because getting America to violently splinter after 1900 is questionable. Prior to the Spanish-American war most people didn't identify as "Americans" but by what State they from. After the war it rapidly became common for people to identify as "American" first and State second.

As for the nature of the split given (Socialist and Capitalist) huge amount depends on what the side were for the "Civil War 2.0", when that took place and the general outcome. If you're wanting it to be Socialist versus Capitalist your going to have to explain how the split came about. It's not impossible to get a major "socialist" movement to gain popularity if some crisis happens which causes a lot of people to question the idea of American "freedom". One of my go-to examples is if the Great Depression is deeper and badly handled by the Federal Government a kind of "Christian Socialism" or "Christian Communism) is possible and could be popular enough to cause a split.
But in general it's very hard to give a good scenario when we don't know the full background.

Randy

Thanks for the advice. We can divide it into east and west with the Mississippi River as the border.

I'm thinking of the POD as the 20s and 30s, but I don't know enough about US political history to set the exact point of division.

 

[jacob ningen]

Thanks for the advice. We can divide it into east and west with the Mississippi River as the border.

I'm thinking of the POD as the 20s and 30s, but I don't know enough about US political history to set the exact point of division.

any good POD is before 1860. IOTL there were several near misses in the early Republic including two plans using Mr. Aaron Burr Sir One where Federalists planned to use him as Governor of New York to enable New England to secede during the Jefferson Administration and then Burr and Wilkinson planned to revolt west of the Appalachians and join Spain for that POD before 1900 Wilkinson doesnt get cold feet and bail on it. Really your POD needs to predate the build up of the Navy under Mckinley and Roosevelt(1896-1904) and the Transcontinental railroad in 1860 as both made it easier for the Federal government to project power against rebellions. Ellis claims that fear of western farmers seceding over Napoleon blockading New Orleans is why Jefferson sent Madison to ask Tallleyrand to sell them New Orleans. Napoleon, having lost Haiti and low on cash countered with the entirety of Louisiana. https://www.americanhistorycentral.com/entries/hartford-convention/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/duel-burr-conspiracy/

https://itshamiltime.com/2017/09/25/the-ladder-of-his-ambition-hamilton-burr-and-the-1804-new-york-gubernatorial-race/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grange_of_the_Order_of_Patrons_of_Husbandry

 

[jacob ningen]

one possible POD leaning on the Grange and agricultural economy of the West is make the Dust Bowl worse. Or more agriculture failings in the West. FDR doesnt subsidize agriculture so Western farmers secede.

 

[RanulfC]

Thanks for the advice. We can divide it into east and west with the Mississippi River as the border.

I'm thinking of the POD as the 20s and 30s, but I don't know enough about US political history to set the exact point of division.

Technically the Mississippi could work but by the 20s and 30s it's hard to get a US breakup. Making the Great Depression worse or having a "Strong States" movement starting after WWI "kinda" works (it was used by a game called "Crimson Skies") but it needs a lot of little details to work and still has a more central problem of getting wide swaths of "states" to band together when the states have historical and cultural differences. (A more modern take but shows the issues)
Anything post WWII is so unlikely to be probably ASB as that was pretty much a 'seal' on Americans thinking AS Americans. (As noted a POD before the Spanish American war is possible but again you need some really good "reasons" for it to happen even then)

Randy

 

[jacob ningen]

Technically the Mississippi could work but by the 20s and 30s it's hard to get a US breakup. Making the Great Depression worse or having a "Strong States" movement starting after WWI "kinda" works (it was used by a game called "Crimson Skies") but it needs a lot of little details to work and still has a more central problem of getting wide swaths of "states" to band together when the states have historical and cultural differences. (A more modern take but shows the issues)
Anything post WWII is so unlikely to be probably ASB as that was pretty much a 'seal' on Americans thinking AS Americans. (As noted a POD before the Spanish American war is possible but again you need some really good "reasons" for it to happen even then)

Randy

and even without identity Eisenhower Nixon and the New Deal insulate\consolidate farmers, undercuts metal speculators, finishes industrialization and the Interstates railroads and planes.

 

[SEMPRINI]

A 'Kaiserreich' scenario is probably your best bet here - some sort of revolutionary government takes power on the East Coast and is able to conquer the South and Midwest before fanning out across the Great Plains, but the "legitimate" government is able to form a redoubt west of the Rockies. Stalemate ensues.

Would need a PoD well before 1900 though.

 

[JaguarCD]

I think almost all of the major changes in the US from 2009 onwards were less likely than Islamists scoring a minor win and making the US majority-Muslim, soo

Many Muslim activists stop the US's official support for Israel by 2015, and convert the US to a slightly majority-Muslim country by 2016. One geographic region with major cities of the US goes for an internet preacher about economics's words, same for the other one. In 2019, the lingering tensions between non-Muslims looking for power and the de-facto regionalist blocs cause civil war.