If the other folks want to get their own Dreadnaught or Battle Cruiser after the war, that might be interesting. Chile had 1 that was taken up by the UK, Argentina had the 2 built in the US, and Brazil had two UK designed ships. What if Chile was to decide that we don't want the one the UK used but wanted one of the "low milage" German ships instead? Bought and payed for of course in some way, but Chile did have ties to Germany pre war for the army to have a in with this. Spain, Portugal and China might want something if it was for sale and the money went to the Entente to pay down the German bill so to speak.
Derfflingers, Mackensens and Yorcks in WW2
- Thread starter minhow
- Start date
That would work but, they did not really want to pay for cheap existing ships so paying for completing a larger one would be hard and any sold ships could not then be sold back under the WNT/LNT/AGNT to Germany?
No they are not going to sell them back to Germany. They would make too many people mad if they did. Basically any European power, Spain or Portugal, would have the UK/France to keep them honest. South American powers would have the other plus the US to intervene. China would have Japan, US, or UK to keep them honest. Anyone even talks about it would end up having a sunk ship before it even get to the payment part at least.
I don't know how to hide an unfinished BB hull, maybe the germans get creative on this ATL.
Russia and Ukraine had a lot of old warship hulls from USSR, that could have their construction resumed, but were left rotting in shipyards. Ofc Versailles and fall of USSR are very different events. This is just an suggestion example for an ATL, with "rusty" unfinished hulls being ignored until it's too late (unlikely).
The ships sold for other countries aren't sold back for Germany, their owners keep them. Spain gets a ship instead of the terrible Españas, Brazil replaces their outdated Minas Geraes, Netherlands buys and finishes some Mackensens, for example. How would these ships would affect WW2, with these countries being sided on the Allies or in an early civil war (Spain)?
Last edited:
If there's a reason for the Entente to let the Germans keep a few modern-ish capital ships (maybe the Soviets manage a cleaner takeover of Russia and are in a position to operate the four Gangut class BBs and restart work on the Borodino class BCs in late 1918?) I'd expect the odds are they'd be allowed to hang onto 2-4 Kaiser or Koenig class Dreadnoughts rather than any Battlecrusiers.
Otherwise, well, the Treaty of Versailles dictated ex-German ships distributed to the victorious powers were to be scrapped or sunk once trial work had been conducted. Maybe it'd be possible to carve out an exception for France (ships to be kept as part of war reparations instead?) and they end up operating the surviving Derfflinger class or given the the incomplete Mackensen class hulls to complete as replacements for the cancelled Normandie class BBs?
Otherwise, well, the Treaty of Versailles dictated ex-German ships distributed to the victorious powers were to be scrapped or sunk once trial work had been conducted. Maybe it'd be possible to carve out an exception for France (ships to be kept as part of war reparations instead?) and they end up operating the surviving Derfflinger class or given the the incomplete Mackensen class hulls to complete as replacements for the cancelled Normandie class BBs?
A few thousand tonnes of rusted steel is not much use besides remelting it.
Really, in post-WW1 OTL or alike, when there were Entente inspectors checking things in Germany, there's no way to hide something as big as battleship hull.
If there's to be finished Mackensens and ersatz-Yorcks, Germany simply cannot lose WW1 in the first place.
We are talking, Mackensen class Hull,
Length 223 m (731 ft 8 in)
Beam 30.4 m (99 ft 9 in)
Draft 9.3 m (30 ft 6 in)
and it would need to be in one of very few known dry docks (that you need commercially and economically post war in 20s....), that would be inspected anyway....... how do you bury such an object......? If you do it out at sea, it's worthless scrap once the salt gets on it for a few years....
Hide them in plain sight!
Plans for conversion post ww1: (source The Kaiser's Battlefleet: German Capital Ships 1871-1918 by Aidan Dodson)
There were also various plans to create a fleet base within the island of Rugen (Rügenhafen) away from prying eyes from mainland and sea with access controlled by the railway. Maybe hide them there but one over flight and they are discovered.
To be frank, the Derfflingers were undergunned and had a programmed life till the early 1930's without the war. Had they been completed, the Mackensens would suffer from poor materials and construction during the war and would not last even to the mid 1930s like most of the other ex-German vessels. Germany maintaining a fleet means that the conditions for signing the WNT wont exist and the weltpolitik policy that they were built for is gone aswell.
Plans for conversion post ww1: (source The Kaiser's Battlefleet: German Capital Ships 1871-1918 by Aidan Dodson)
There were also various plans to create a fleet base within the island of Rugen (Rügenhafen) away from prying eyes from mainland and sea with access controlled by the railway. Maybe hide them there but one over flight and they are discovered.
To be frank, the Derfflingers were undergunned and had a programmed life till the early 1930's without the war. Had they been completed, the Mackensens would suffer from poor materials and construction during the war and would not last even to the mid 1930s like most of the other ex-German vessels. Germany maintaining a fleet means that the conditions for signing the WNT wont exist and the weltpolitik policy that they were built for is gone aswell.
Last edited:
These would be interesting.
Being converted into cargo ships and reconverted again into BBs. Or an ultrasecret base.
Suddently in the 30s there are new battleships being launched.
Garrison
Donor
But there are somethings you can't hide. Consider all the workers involved in building such a ship, never mind hiding it. This is up there on the list of near impossible things along with 'secret' moon rocket launches.
Except it won't be suddenly and battleships hulls do not make for good cargo ships, unless the Entente are deaf, blind and stupid, they are going to spot them and when they do that it is likely to impact how the British react to things like the remilitarization of the Rhineland or the Sudeten Crisis. Such things do not happen in a vacuum.
Last edited:
The compartmentalizations needed for warships and the open space needed by cargo ships are in direct opposition to each other.
Yes.
Don't need to be Germany owning these ships. But what about another country buying these hulls and finishing them?
Garrison
Donor
The Entente would veto it, or place clear restrictions on doing so, they won't let the Germans use it as an end run around the restrictions on their armed forces.
What kind of restrictions? Don't sell for another country and follow the WNT?
Hard to find would be a country willing to buy, finish and hold these ships after WW1.
Quite frankly the only way to get these ships to WW2 is a Central Powers victory timeline.
For the Derfflingers, they could had been finished earlier, maybe they are laid and received more priority on building.
Derfflinger- it is assigned on Mediterranean Squadron, alongside Goeben and Breslau. In the outbreak of WW1, it sucessfully escapes from the entente and is given for the turks.
Lützow - it is assigned on the East Asia Squadron, on outbreak of WW1, Graf Spee follows everything OTL, except that in Falkland Islands, when he enter Stanley, and find the RN, with the battlecruisers Invincible, Indefatigable and Queen Mary (divergence from OTL) on port, instead of running away, he attacks them, and sinks them . In the end he goes for a SA port and is interned, alongside the ship.
Hindenburg - by being built earlier, it has another name. It could had be followed a other ship above, or sailing in the oceans, and being interned and seized on a neutral country.
Now the Derfflingers are still existing in WW2.
Defflinger was, just upside down (spent longer floating upside down than right side up!) and in British hands.
A ship interned in a Neutral port would be handed over or sent to Scapa, not back to Germany. Goeben was taken over by the British but a new treaty left her in Turk hands, not likely for 2 ships.
If you can't already build them then you don't have the capability to complete them. Any converted ship is without armament and armour. This is about 2-3rds of the cost of the ship and at this point, the part that is undergoing transformation is machinery so they are quite worthless as converted merchant ships with the machinery aging quite quickly. The only reason why they were considered was that there was a lack of shipping, IIRC a torpedo boat was converted to a sailing ship.