DBWI: Balkanize North America?

[Legolas]

(OOC: I hope this wasn't done before, at least I never found anything like that. And before you scream that it's not DBWI, read the following post )

So, we have the Balkan peninsula - an area with a huge diversity of culture groups, people, religions, etc., all united under one flag. Such an achievement is remarkable enough to warrant the term "balkanization" to refer to such a unification without real common ground.

On the other hand (and side of the world) we have North America - another region inhabited by tens, if not hudnreds of different peoples, cultures and religions. And it seems that every one of them must have their own tiny country and be constantly arguing and warring against each other.

So what PoD do you think would be needed to have North America effectively balkanized - either as one huge empire, or maybe 2-3 (still huge) countries?

 

[boredatwork]

Hard - the balkans (and Europe as a whole) have geography in favor of smaller political units - there's a wealth of natural physical barriers.

In the OTL US, not so much - you've got the E coast to the apalachians, then the appalacians to the mississippi, (or across it, depending on developments), then you've got another open run to the rockies.

From the rockies to the pacific you've got potential for more areas, but a large portion of those are water-poor. there's imperial valley in OTL CA, two river valleys in Washington and Oregon.

In Canada, the outlines are similar - the maritimes have some islands peninsulas, but crap soil, and once the grand banks start getting overfished - indep countries there will be piss-poor and begging someone to take them over. The SL river valley/great lakes area is going to have a strong incliniation to mix/meld with the OTL US mid-continent region - going north there's zero geographically to break things up. The OTL canadian far west (BC/Yukon) shares the pacific northwest pattern of mountains and river valleys - but the highly navigable waters and lack of significant agricultural opportunities will likely lead to some sort of quasi unified region there.

The rockies->pacific region has a strong natural defence, but will under most possible scenarios have a far smaller population than the rest of the continent, and would be unlikely to survive extended warfare.

As is, the NA continent is more 'balkanized' than would be expected in a more militant TL - whichever power gains control of a unified Mississippi watershed is going to overpower the neighbors pretty quickly, given relatively equal levels of technology.

 

[Michael B]

As is, the NA continent is more 'balkanized' than would be expected in a more militant TL - whichever power gains control of a unified Mississippi watershed is going to overpower the neighbors pretty quickly, given relatively equal levels of technology.

In terms of starting balkanisation there were French, Spanish, English, Scottish, Dutch, Swedish and Russian colonies and these are just the ones I know of. Plus of course the native Americans. Quite mixing point yet what happens? The English and their republican descendants conquer the north and the middle whilst the Spanish conquered the south.

With the first "hi tech" settlements being small, it does not take much for one European power to start mopping up the others if they don't get the support that they need from home. Only the Spanish really got that support and the English republicans still carved off some of their territory. The next biggest, the French with all due respect gave up.

 

[Legolas]

OOC: Since I am still relatively new here, could some of the veterans tell me if the facepalm is already appropriate or not?

By the way, sorry for the typo in the title. Apparently, I cannot edit the initial post.

 

[bard32]

(OOC: I hope this wasn't done before, at least I never found anything like that. And before you scream that it's not DBWI, read the following post )

So, we have the Balkan peninsula - an area with a huge diversity of culture groups, people, religions, etc., all united under one flag. Such an achievement is remarkable enough to warrant the term "balkanization" to refer to such a unification without real common ground.

On the other hand (and side of the world) we have North America - another region inhabited by tens, if not hudnreds of different peoples, cultures and religions. And it seems that every one of them must have their own tiny country and be constantly arguing and warring against each other.

So what PoD do you think would be needed to have North America effectively balkanized - either as one huge empire, or maybe 2-3 (still huge) countries?

Slim to none. Although, at one time, there was a plot by Aaron Burr to create an empire in the West. The plot was uncovered by one of Burr's co-
conspirators, and Burr was arrested and tried for treason.

 

[Codae]

And another DBWI is ruined...

 

[Superdude]

Slim to none. Although, at one time, there was a plot by Aaron Burr to create an empire in the West. The plot was uncovered by one of Burr's co-
conspirators, and Burr was arrested and tried for treason.

I don't think you get it.

 

[Norman]

How about this

I think you can do it.

First: Either England doesn't get New Amsterdam or the Dutch, prior to handing it over, actually make a real attempt to colonize the state.

Second: the Swedish settlements in Delaware succeed.

Third, Pennsylvania is settled by Germans.

Fourth, the Iroquios sucessfully hold onto Western New York and Northern parts of PA, but do so by absorbing the many smaller tribes in the area.

Fifth, Englih settlements in New England, and in Southern Virginia and the Carolinas.

Sixth, Spanish settlements in Florida and up into Georgia.

Seventh, the French hold on Louisiana and Quebec longer.

Eighth, the Cherokee in the South 'modernize' even more quickly, absorbing smaller tribes.

Ninth, there is a strong Algonquin tribal confederation that successfully resists the European settlements.

 

[Codae]

Hard - the balkans (and Europe as a whole) have geography in favor of smaller political units - there's a wealth of natural physical barriers.

In the OTL US, not so much - you've got the E coast to the apalachians, then the appalacians to the mississippi, (or across it, depending on developments), then you've got another open run to the rockies.

From the rockies to the pacific you've got potential for more areas, but a large portion of those are water-poor. there's imperial valley in OTL CA, two river valleys in Washington and Oregon.

In Canada, the outlines are similar - the maritimes have some islands peninsulas, but crap soil, and once the grand banks start getting overfished - indep countries there will be piss-poor and begging someone to take them over. The SL river valley/great lakes area is going to have a strong incliniation to mix/meld with the OTL US mid-continent region - going north there's zero geographically to break things up. The OTL canadian far west (BC/Yukon) shares the pacific northwest pattern of mountains and river valleys - but the highly navigable waters and lack of significant agricultural opportunities will likely lead to some sort of quasi unified region there.

The rockies->pacific region has a strong natural defence, but will under most possible scenarios have a far smaller population than the rest of the continent, and would be unlikely to survive extended warfare.

As is, the NA continent is more 'balkanized' than would be expected in a more militant TL - whichever power gains control of a unified Mississippi watershed is going to overpower the neighbors pretty quickly, given relatively equal levels of technology.

In terms of starting balkanisation there were French, Spanish, English, Scottish, Dutch, Swedish and Russian colonies and these are just the ones I know of. Plus of course the native Americans. Quite mixing point yet what happens? The English and their republican descendants conquer the north and the middle whilst the Spanish conquered the south.

With the first "hi tech" settlements being small, it does not take much for one European power to start mopping up the others if they don't get the support that they need from home. Only the Spanish really got that support and the English republicans still carved off some of their territory. The next biggest, the French with all due respect gave up.

Slim to none. Although, at one time, there was a plot by Aaron Burr to create an empire in the West. The plot was uncovered by one of Burr's co-
conspirators, and Burr was arrested and tried for treason.

I think you can do it.

First: Either England doesn't get New Amsterdam or the Dutch, prior to handing it over, actually make a real attempt to colonize the state.

Second: the Swedish settlements in Delaware succeed.

Third, Pennsylvania is settled by Germans.

Fourth, the Iroquios sucessfully hold onto Western New York and Northern parts of PA, but do so by absorbing the many smaller tribes in the area.

Fifth, Englih settlements in New England, and in Southern Virginia and the Carolinas.

Sixth, Spanish settlements in Florida and up into Georgia.

Seventh, the French hold on Louisiana and Quebec longer.

Eighth, the Cherokee in the South 'modernize' even more quickly, absorbing smaller tribes.

Ninth, there is a strong Algonquin tribal confederation that successfully resists the European settlements.

Read the OP! This is ATL Balkanization!

 

[bard32]

I don't think you get it.

I get it. Turn North America into Europe. What's the POD here?

 

[Roberto]

Another potentially great DBWI ruined by n00bs.

 

[Roberto]

I get it. Turn North America into Europe. What's the POD here?

Let me explain DBWIs to you, since you obviously don't get it. In the OP, Legolas explained that in ATL, Balkanize means united, overcoming cultural and geographic divisions. Therefore, in ATL, North America is not united into only a couple of large states (as in OTL), so one could assume that it is divided on cultural grounds.

Also, in DBWIs, the POD isn't immediately available. YOU, the poster, are supposed to drop hints (but not the annoying infodumpage these threads always get) about the background of the TL, essentially painting the background to this world.

 

[Michael B]

Let me explain DBWIs to you, since you obviously don't get it. In the OP, Legolas explained that in ATL, Balkanize means united, overcoming cultural and geographic divisions. Therefore, in ATL, North America is not united into only a couple of large states (as in OTL), so one could assume that it is divided on cultural grounds.

Also, in DBWIs, the POD isn't immediately available. YOU, the poster, are supposed to drop hints (but not the annoying infodumpage these threads always get) about the background of the TL, essentially painting the background to this world.

Balkanization: A geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other.

Question: what do you do about a hostile neighbour. Possible answer, take them out,especially if you have a bigger army.

Question what did the English and their republican descendant do in North America with hostile neighbours like the French and Amerindian tribes. Answer: they took them out especially when they had a larger army because that was the nature of their culture.

 

[Othniel]

So, we have the Balkan peninsula - an area with a huge diversity of culture groups, people, religions, etc., all united under one flag. Such an achievement is remarkable enough to warrant the term "balkanization" to refer to such a unification without real common ground.

Balkanization: A geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other.

Mike_B, which timeline are you dwelling in? We have a Unifed Balkans, and a non-unifed North America. Therefore the question remains in how we unify North America. Me, I'd go with some form of plauge starting with European contact. This would weaken native tribes enough that costal colonies might not have made lasting treaties with them, and allowed for European to push westward. Two without stable boarders these colonies would require defense of some kind, therefore relating a millitary build-up. These colonial enities might then not become single cities or companies, but form wider charters, much like Australlia. Eventually one colony, or group of colonies might come to dominate the others, and the natives, therefore unifing the Continet.

 

[Roberto]

Balkanization: A geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other.

Question: what do you do about a hostile neighbour. Possible answer, take them out,especially if you have a bigger army.

Question what did the English and their republican descendant do in North America with hostile neighbours like the French and Amerindian tribes. Answer: they took them out especially when they had a larger army because that was the nature of their culture.

I'm giving up on this thread. In the OP, it's stated that ITTL, Balkanization means Unification.

 

[AirshipArmada]

. . . Me, I'd go with some form of plauge starting with European contact. This would weaken native tribes enough that costal colonies might not have made lasting treaties with them, and allowed for European to push westward. . .

To have the Native population susceptible to European diseases we will have to reduce genetic diversity, and reduce most early contact with Europe. Maybe the Norse settlements could be less successful. This could mean that word of the New World doesn't reach Europe at all, so things like the Jewish migration to the New World after the Third Crusade doesn't take place.


But do we need such a major POD?

What if the Five Nations accepts other nations more readily - becoming the Eight Nations, the Twelve Nations, and so on. Then all the current small states could be loosely held under one Iroquois flag.

 

[boredatwork]

OOC - D'oh! sorry about that.

Still, the OP presumes that NA is (using OTL version) balkanized as of today. Not sure how that happens - I can see how colonization could be balkanized, but by the time you reach napoleonic era levels of military and economic development, not seeing how to maintain numerous distinct, violently opposed cultures with centuries of bloodfeuds. The ole imagination is lacking today.

 

[Snake Featherston]

(OOC: I hope this wasn't done before, at least I never found anything like that. And before you scream that it's not DBWI, read the following post )

So, we have the Balkan peninsula - an area with a huge diversity of culture groups, people, religions, etc., all united under one flag. Such an achievement is remarkable enough to warrant the term "balkanization" to refer to such a unification without real common ground.

On the other hand (and side of the world) we have North America - another region inhabited by tens, if not hudnreds of different peoples, cultures and religions. And it seems that every one of them must have their own tiny country and be constantly arguing and warring against each other.

So what PoD do you think would be needed to have North America effectively balkanized - either as one huge empire, or maybe 2-3 (still huge) countries?

A unified North America like the Great Yugoslavic Empire? Preposterous! There's too much of an ASB notion in that the French-Caddoan Republic of Louisiana might possibly have been forced to yield to anything else. As if that United Colonies proposed when the English were on the continent would have been possible. Thank God for the foresight of Bienville, had he not signed this alliance with the Caddoans and the isolate-speakers here, why this Louisiana I live in might possibly have been...Anglo!!

Nah, you're talking crazy shit here. No huge nation is possible in a region like North America, much less three of them. The sheer size of the terrain argues against it. What sort of power can unite regions like the French-Caddoan Republic and the Empire of the Dakotas? ASBs, I tell you.