Czarist Russia Sub-machineguns
- Thread starter Adam
- Start date
For Czarist Russia to develop an early submachine gun some innovative military thinking is going to be required plus equipped large numbers of troops with a new weapon. Somehow I don't think that is going to happen.
Besides a submachine gun is a close range weapon. Good for street fighting and trench warfare. Not so good for open country battle and the war on the Eastern Front was more open than that in the West.
Besides a submachine gun is a close range weapon. Good for street fighting and trench warfare. Not so good for open country battle and the war on the Eastern Front was more open than that in the West.
Why not? They developed an assault rifle(the Avtomat Federova) in OTL.
CanadianGoose
Banned
Russian Imperial Army wouldn't be an early and enthusiastic adopter of SMG concept. SMGs were products of trench warfare, and long frontline of Eastern Europe delayed necessity to adopt it (besides, Russians were fighting Austrians on good part of front and against them less unorthodox methods worked just fine, as Brusilov proved). So, interwar Russian Army would likely use German model ("LMG plus infantry squad with bolt-action rifles"). However, when I said "Imperial Army" it didn't mean "all armed forces". First, there was Gendarmerie. Next, Cossask units operated somewhat separately. In fact, taking into account early specialization of Cossack infantry as storm troopers (well established by 1917 IOTL) and Cossack Hosts' ability to procure weapons, Cossacks could become early adopters.
PPSh is not to appear. Shpagin was but a mere peasant and it isn't likely that he would be given an opportunity to work on his designs. Best case scenario for him is to work under Fedorov, and Fedorov isn't exactly known for taste to build crude but cheap and relatively effective weapons. I would say that Russain Army buying license to manufacture Sten in the beginning of the war is very likely.
PPSh is not to appear. Shpagin was but a mere peasant and it isn't likely that he would be given an opportunity to work on his designs. Best case scenario for him is to work under Fedorov, and Fedorov isn't exactly known for taste to build crude but cheap and relatively effective weapons. I would say that Russain Army buying license to manufacture Sten in the beginning of the war is very likely.
If I remember it correctly, submachineguns weren't widely used by anyone except Soviet Russia before the start of WW2. Even Nazi Germany, which was normally quick to pick up on these things, only issued them in a 1 to 10 ratio.
And ofcourse, submachineguns became obsolete as a primary military weapon within a decade, but that's not all that relevant.
And ofcourse, submachineguns became obsolete as a primary military weapon within a decade, but that's not all that relevant.
The Russians weren't big users of SMG's until after the Winter War. The first Russian tommy gun, the PPD, made it's debut in 1934 and was replaced by the PPSh in 1941 after a production run of only 90,000 or so, small by Soviet standards.
The most likely SMG for a surviving Tsarist Russia would be the Suomi from Finland.
CanadianGoose
Banned
Yes, I was toying with idea of Lahti becoming weapons designer in Russia. Problem is, his designs shared all the shortcomings of early SMGs (insane amount of machining making weapons waaay too expensive in mass production). Basically, mass-produced SMG should be made using stamping, as STEN, PPSh, PPS (actually better design than PPSh), and (to a lesser extent) MP-40. Using Lahti's magazine, however, is possible.
Is this just the Czardom surviving the Revolution, or can there be other PODs? Because if you had someone like oen of the reforms Czar's surviving (An obvious person to totally alter the history of the Russian Empire is Alexander II, for example) you could see the military -not to mention nation- modernized enough, cared for enough and equipped enough so that something like an Imperial Russian sub-machine gun is totally feasible.
bye, bye, ammo
... it's an ironic suggestion, I'm afraid.... The greatest Russian failing in WWI (and there's plenty of competition) is that they ran out of ammo quickly, or like to my granddad, issued the wrong kind.
It was even a problem in WWII, despite Stalin's claims about high production. It would likely've just made things worse, I'm afraid.... I'd guess any Russian gummint would be slow off the block with them until production and supply started to be less than hopeless, as the Red Army was. And that'd be a good, long time unless there were some seriously amazing governmental reforms.
I've been working on a surviving Russian constitutional monarchy ATL scenario, and it's not impossible, but it's certainly hard, because you seem to've had a majority of extreme Russians, unused to democracy, as shown by how the Russian Duma worked out. The sheer numbers of problems (what DID work in Czarist Russia?) worked to radicalize. The peasants tended right-wing and the cities left-wing. I thought the Al II scenario was a little optimistic about that. And, there's also the handicap of Russian elite disinterest in democratic history and literature, which handicapped their problem-solving in the constitutional years.
... it's an ironic suggestion, I'm afraid.... The greatest Russian failing in WWI (and there's plenty of competition) is that they ran out of ammo quickly, or like to my granddad, issued the wrong kind.
It was even a problem in WWII, despite Stalin's claims about high production. It would likely've just made things worse, I'm afraid.... I'd guess any Russian gummint would be slow off the block with them until production and supply started to be less than hopeless, as the Red Army was. And that'd be a good, long time unless there were some seriously amazing governmental reforms.
I've been working on a surviving Russian constitutional monarchy ATL scenario, and it's not impossible, but it's certainly hard, because you seem to've had a majority of extreme Russians, unused to democracy, as shown by how the Russian Duma worked out. The sheer numbers of problems (what DID work in Czarist Russia?) worked to radicalize. The peasants tended right-wing and the cities left-wing. I thought the Al II scenario was a little optimistic about that. And, there's also the handicap of Russian elite disinterest in democratic history and literature, which handicapped their problem-solving in the constitutional years.
CanadianGoose
Banned
"Ammo hunger" of 1914-1915 had been caused not by inability to produce and deliver cartridges and shells but by severe miscalculation of consumption. I don't remember exact numbers off the top of my head, but General Staff geniuses were requesting something like 500-1000 cartridges per rifle, amount which had been shot through in first month of war or so. By 1916 Russian factories produced as many cartridges as troops could consume and logistic system was generally adequate in delivering them to frontline. Besides, we're talking about WWII, aren't we? There are very conflicting POVs on how good or bad Russian Empire would be economically comparing to Stalin's USSR, but nobody seriously deny that they would be at least comparable. Besides, cartridges are kinda low-tech product, ideally suited for assembly on tobacco factories, for example. All in all, I don't see cartridge problem as the biggest.
Generally, I expect rate of SMG adoption be somewhere below OTL Soviet level. There would not be whole regiments armed with them, SMGs would remain weapons of top 10% frontline troops (stormtroopers, squad commanders and such).
The OP doesn't mention anything about mass production and in the period given, the 1930 to 40, Lahti's designs were the norm. A tsarist mass-production weapon would probably follow the path of the STEN and PPS.
CanadianGoose
Banned
Russian Army adopting anything equals "mass production", if you want this anything to be visible. And Lahti's designs (LMG, SMG, handgun) were not adapted to mass production. It might be consequence of industrial base he was relying on (basically arm repair workshops with fancy names of "works"), I don't know. But, assuming he understood mass-production technologies, he could use Swedish facilities, couldn't he? But he didn't. So, to be frank with you, I don't see him becoming a father of Russian SMG. LMG, possibly, although Lahti-Saloranta was a dud comparing to DP, for example (this is an off-topic, but DP is butterflied away too).
Actually, Czarist Russia was the first country to adopt the light Michine gun. It purchase a large number of the weapons from Denmark. They were lightwieht and quite good. The Imperial German Army was very impressed with the weapons and they issued a lot of these captured weapons to their assault troops latter in the war.