Could Charles V have partitioned things differently?

[raharris1973]

What if instead of OTL's partition, he deeded Spain, Naples, Austria, Bohemia and Hungary to Philip and the Burgundian inheritance and Milan to Ferdinand, while also supporting Ferdinand for HRE?

How does Ferdinand handle the Netherlands and Milan?

How does European history change with Spain under Spain probably not involved in the Netherlands Revolt and northern Italy, but possibly more involved with trying to defend and extend Hungary and Croatia?

 

[Benevolence]

What if instead of OTL's partition, he deeded Spain, Naples, Austria, Bohemia and Hungary to Philip and the Burgundian inheritance and Milan to Ferdinand, while also supporting Ferdinand for HRE?

How does Ferdinand handle the Netherlands and Milan?

How does European history change with Spain under Spain probably not involved in the Netherlands Revolt and northern Italy, but possibly more involved with trying to defend and extend Hungary and Croatia?

Charles had no authority/right over Bohemia (except as HRE) and Hungary. Bohemia & Hungary were inherited by Ferdinand by right of marriage to his wife Anna and as such were Ferdinand & Anna's so Charles couldn't give it to Philip.

Austria was given to Ferdinand because of Maximilian I will and to appease the estates of Bohemia and Hungary around the time Ferdinand married Anna in 1521 (he was governor of Austria on Charles's behalf but I think they'd pretty much decided he'd get something there).

Only parts Charles can conceivably divide are Milan & the Burgundian inheritance. If all goes OTL, but Ferdinand gets both or they are given to Maria of Spain when she marries Maximilian II it'd be great. Not saying no Dutch revolt (the region had one reason or another, not to be dismissive, to revolt agx the Habsburgs especially due to their centralising ways from Maximilian I as regent, to Charles V on taxes) but it'd be a heck of a lot easier to manage.

If Ferdinand gets it
Maximilian - Austria + Bohemia + Hungary
Ferdinand (of further Austria) - might get the low countries but his morganatic marriage may be an issue, or else an understanding is made and the low countries revert to Maximilian II on his death.
Charles of Styria - Milan.

Most of Ferdinand's sons to some degree were accomodating of Protestantism, not sure of Ferdinand of further austria because the reformation didn't really penetrate there as far as I'm aware. Maximilian we know was so inclined that Ferdinand I had to promise the pope that Maximilian wouldn't succeed him as Emperor if Maximilian converted. Charles of Styria while introducing the counter-reformation still made a deal with the Protestant nobility in Styria granting them some rights.

Now if it goes to Maximilian II, even better. Not only do we completely side step the religious aspect of the revolt during his era. When he divides his realms as he likely will. We have so many sons to choose
Rudolf II - Austria + Bohemia + Hungary
Ernest - Low countries/ 17 provinces
Matthias - Milan
Albert - can get further Austria if Ferdinand of further Austria doesn't marry
Wenceslaus - maybe make him Landgrave of Sundgau and Free count of Burgundy.

Morganatic sons of Ferdinand of further Austria get sent to cozy positions in the church, maybe prince bishop of Liege. Archbishop of Toledo.

Effects of HRE:
Stronger powerbase for the Emperor. Possibly actual threat of enforcement of who's realm who's religion and preservation of the petty prince-bisphorics rather than them being secularised by protestant princes in violation of the peace of Augsburg. The 17 provinces will revolt but it likely won't turn into the mess it was OTL. More resources for the reconquest of Hungary and Croatia. Not saying Austria will win be she'll definitely give the Ottomans a greater run for their money.
France, if the HRE & Spain are not directly attached her encroachment in the Rhine won't go over as well. I see her focusing on Italy specifically Savoy and on Navarre in the Iberian peninsula. France will probably attempt a detente will England (they'll play the region agx each other as always, perfidious Albion). I don't think the wars will go as well for France as the relative new branches can focus on their goals and defence well enough. Resources will not be as spread thin.

 

[JonasResende]

There was a plan (in lieu of a second son for Karl V) of dowering Maria of Spain with the Low Countries on her marriage to Maximilian II, with the understanding that the Low Countries were to be passed to a second son of Max and Maria, while the eldest would be heir to the Empire and Hungary-Bohemia.

In which case, we'd have 3 separate regal branches of the Habsburgs outside of Austria: in Spain, in Hungary (imperial branch) and in the Low Countries. In addition to the cadet Austrian branches of Archdukes Ferdinand II and Karl of Steyr

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Charles had no authority/right over Bohemia (except as HRE) and Hungary. Bohemia & Hungary were inherited by Ferdinand by right of marriage to his wife Anna and as such were Ferdinand & Anna's so Charles couldn't give it to Philip.

Austria was given to Ferdinand because of Maximilian I will and to appease the estates of Bohemia and Hungary around the time Ferdinand married Anna in 1521 (he was governor of Austria on Charles's behalf but I think they'd pretty much decided he'd get something there).

Only parts Charles can conceivably divide are Milan & the Burgundian inheritance. If all goes OTL, but Ferdinand gets both or they are given to Maria of Spain when she marries Maximilian II it'd be great. Not saying no Dutch revolt (the region had one reason or another, not to be dismissive, to revolt agx the Habsburgs especially due to their centralising ways from Maximilian I as regent, to Charles V on taxes) but it'd be a heck of a lot easier to manage.

If Ferdinand gets it
Maximilian - Austria + Bohemia + Hungary
Ferdinand (of further Austria) - might get the low countries but his morganatic marriage may be an issue, or else an understanding is made and the low countries revert to Maximilian II on his death.
Charles of Styria - Milan.

Most of Ferdinand's sons to some degree were accomodating of Protestantism, not sure of Ferdinand of further austria because the reformation didn't really penetrate there as far as I'm aware. Maximilian we know was so inclined that Ferdinand I had to promise the pope that Maximilian wouldn't succeed him as Emperor if Maximilian converted. Charles of Styria while introducing the counter-reformation still made a deal with the Protestant nobility in Styria granting them some rights.

Now if it goes to Maximilian II, even better. Not only do we completely side step the religious aspect of the revolt during his era. When he divides his realms as he likely will. We have so many sons to choose
Rudolf II - Austria + Bohemia + Hungary
Ernest - Low countries/ 17 provinces
Matthias - Milan
Albert - can get further Austria if Ferdinand of further Austria doesn't marry
Wenceslaus - maybe make him Landgrave of Sundgau and Free count of Burgundy.

Morganatic sons of Ferdinand of further Austria get sent to cozy positions in the church, maybe prince bishop of Liege. Archbishop of Toledo.

Effects of HRE:
Stronger powerbase for the Emperor. Possibly actual threat of enforcement of who's realm who's religion and preservation of the petty prince-bisphorics rather than them being secularised by protestant princes in violation of the peace of Augsburg. The 17 provinces will revolt but it likely won't turn into the mess it was OTL. More resources for the reconquest of Hungary and Croatia. Not saying Austria will win be she'll definitely give the Ottomans a greater run for their money.
France, if the HRE & Spain are not directly attached her encroachment in the Rhine won't go over as well. I see her focusing on Italy specifically Savoy and on Navarre in the Iberian peninsula. France will probably attempt a detente will England (they'll play the region agx each other as always, perfidious Albion). I don't think the wars will go as well for France as the relative new branches can focus on their goals and defence well enough. Resources will not be as spread thin.

This in return will cause more war between Austria and France due to Austrians owning the lowlands. So the idea that Austria can send many more resources to Hungary is silly. Especially if super ultra-Catholic Ferdinand II becomes ruler. Because then, the Dutch will revolt again. So more pain the ass.

Spain is more relieved. They miss a lot of tax income but avoiding the wars there is already a positive. More focus on Portugal, Americas, Italy and especially NO dutch interference in the East Indies.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

I was thinking... if Lajos II didn't die in Mohacs and safely returned to Buda... Ferdinand wouldn't have gained Royal Hungary or Bohemia. This would mean that if things don't change much in the ATL, Ferdinand might also inherit the Burgundian territory and mabye even Lombardy.

 

[Benevolence]

This in return will cause more war between Austria and France due to Austrians owning the lowlands. So the idea that Austria can send many more resources to Hungary is silly. Especially if super ultra-Catholic Ferdinand II becomes ruler. Because then, the Dutch will revolt again. So more pain the ass.

Spain is more relieved. They miss a lot of tax income but avoiding the wars there is already a positive. More focus on Portugal, Americas, Italy and especially NO dutch interference in the East Indies.

This is under the assumption of the low countries passing to the Austrian line post abdication. So post 1558/1559 there's peace with France, more resources (say gold for mercenaries) from the low countries to devote to the Little war in Hungary which didn't end OTL until 1568. The next conflict is the war of Portuguese succession (assuming following OTL), the HRE & Spain aren't directly attached, so the attack on multiple (Spanish) fronts doesn't work as well if they are separate entities and following that we have the French Wars of Religion. So long as the Austrian lines don't mess with France during this era, France is mostly too pre-occupied to really go in for the kill (I think at least). Same for the Long Turkish War (ends in 1606) so maybe there's a French intervention but I think with probably not.

Now on OTL Ferdinand II of Styria, probably does not exist (his mother was the driving force/correction per wikipedia his pilgrimage to italy , either way I think the pressure would be on Charles of Styria to marry earlier (likely Charles V might say if he doesn't have kids or only daughters it's back to spain for the low countries) and someone nearer to the Low countries region for diplomatic reasons will be an excellent choice for a bride. We could have Charles & Marie Eleonore of Cleves (OTL duchess of prussia), Elisabeth I makes another good candidate (there were OTL negotiations but religion was an issue), Mary Queen of Scots, Claude of France or Margaret of Valois as part of peace with Spain following the Italian war of 1551-59, Renata (OTL duchess of Bavaria) of Lorraine to swing Lorraine more into the Habsburg camp.

On your other points I agree Spain is more relieved, rather the points of war will be Portugal & Italy. I can see Spain intervening on Savoy's behalf with regards to France to prevent them from getting a foothold in Italy.

 

[JonasResende]

Out of curiosity, would Archduke Ferdinand II of Austria's marriage to Fraulein Welser be regarded as morganatic in the Low Countries. Certainly not in the French parts, since the concept of a morganatic marriage didn't exist under French law (AFAIK), but could the more Northern parts be persuaded to come around to accept the marriage (I'm not sure that morganatic likewise existed under Dutch law, since Maurits of Nassau threatened to marry his mistress (Margarethe van Mechelen) and legitimate his bastard sons if Frederik Hendrik didn't stop jerking around and marry. Something that if the Dutch HAD HAD rules against a left-handed/private wedding I can't see them have accepting. And thus Frederik would've known this and not have married).

 

[Monter]

There was Morganatic marriage in France, see Louis XIV's second "marriage".

 

[Paul Spring]

Definitely better for Spain in the long run, without the huge expense of fighting the Netherlands rebels. If butterflies mean that Henri II of France isn't killed in a jousting accident, France might have stronger leadership in the later 16th century and start challenging the Spanish in Italy again, plus whichever branch of the Habsburgs is ruling the Netherlands.

 

[Cornelis]

There was Morganatic marriage in France, see Louis XIV's second "marriage".

Not the same thing. A secret marriage is a marriage with no civil law consequences, ie the children born to it are bastards. A morganatic marriage is a public marriage, children have a civil recognition, but cannot enjoy anything else, such as name and title.

 

[JonasResende]

Definitely better for Spain in the long run, without the huge expense of fighting the Netherlands rebels. If butterflies mean that Henri II of France isn't killed in a jousting accident, France might have stronger leadership in the later 16th century and start challenging the Spanish in Italy again, plus whichever branch of the Habsburgs is ruling the Netherlands.

I'm sorry but it simply avoids the succession of regencies. I'm not sure it would mean stronger leadership. We might see an earlier St. Bartholomew's. Henri and Felipe might have butted heads politically but as far as religious matters were concerned, they could've been brothers. Although, Felipe was the more pragmatic of the two (religion outside his realm played a secondary role to politics - see his support of Elizabeth (a Protestant) against the queen of Scots (a Catholic)), whereas Henri tended two see the two strands twisted together "un loi, un foi, un roi". I think there are going to be some harsh policies against the Huguenots (this is the king who wanted a French inquisition along the lines of Spain's IIRC) not necessarily the give-take balancing act of Caterina de Medici's regency.

 

[avernite]

Out of curiosity, would Archduke Ferdinand II of Austria's marriage to Fraulein Welser be regarded as morganatic in the Low Countries. Certainly not in the French parts, since the concept of a morganatic marriage didn't exist under French law (AFAIK), but could the more Northern parts be persuaded to come around to accept the marriage (I'm not sure that morganatic likewise existed under Dutch law, since Maurits of Nassau threatened to marry his mistress (Margarethe van Mechelen) and legitimate his bastard sons if Frederik Hendrik didn't stop jerking around and marry. Something that if the Dutch HAD HAD rules against a left-handed/private wedding I can't see them have accepting. And thus Frederik would've known this and not have married).

The concept has always seemed one of choice, not necessity, to have a certain marriage be deemed morganatic or not. I'm sure if the political will existed, the marriage could be deemed non-morganatic.

 

[raharris1973]

What about philipp getting Austria, but not Hungary or Bohemia or any place else in the HRE?

 

[Benevolence]

What about philipp getting Austria, but not Hungary or Bohemia or any place else in the HRE?

I think that just complicates things, Charles knew it was incredibly difficult to govern both Spain & the empire, which was what drove the division in the first place. The only reason to do this would be to give Philip land that would make him eligible to be a candidate for emperor (which wasn't going to happen, Ferdinand & Maximilian (ii) refused to support his proposed candidacy nor were the electors willing to have another Spanish emperor), Milan serves that easily with more monetary rewards (Philip was installed Duke of Milan) or Franche-Comte which is still closer to the Spanish core.

I'm assuming Austria itself is divided like how we had a Leopoldine and Albertine line and the analogues to actually territory will be
Leopoldine line = Spanish (Styria + Tyrol)
Albertine = Austrian (Archduchy of Austria proper)
The region isn't worth that much compared to the other Habsburg realms, it's main source of wealth apart from taxes I believe were the mines of Tyrol which were under the administration of the banking families (Augusburgs).

It's far away and needs to be actively defended (from Turkish incursions). Money would also need to be spent to administer it as well or a family member will administer it on his behalf. It made more sense to give all Austria to Ferdinand than try to split it and have parts administered from far away Spain. Charles also didn't have strong familial memories of Austria (I don't he spent anytime is Austria prior to his ascension as emperor, I know his dad did in Tyrol) as he did of Ghent (which I think made it easier to give to his brother)

 

[writofcertiorari]

Is there any chance that one of the monarchs of the smaller states in the HRE could have asked to be Emperor? This would have 2 benefits- one, the individual states wouldn't feel threatened, and two, it would probably prevent any centralization or related calamities for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure who would actually want it or be allowed to have it, though. Bohemia could just be ruled by someone not in the HRE if necessary.

 

[Benevolence]

This is under the assumption of the low countries passing to the Austrian line post abdication. So post 1558/1559 there's peace with France, more resources (say gold for mercenaries) from the low countries to devote to the Little war in Hungary which didn't end OTL until 1568. The next conflict is the war of Portuguese succession (assuming following OTL), the HRE & Spain aren't directly attached, so the attack on multiple (Spanish) fronts doesn't work as well if they are separate entities and following that we have the French Wars of Religion. So long as the Austrian lines don't mess with France during this era, France is mostly too pre-occupied to really go in for the kill (I think at least). Same for the Long Turkish War (ends in 1606) so maybe there's a French intervention but I think with probably not.

Now on OTL Ferdinand II of Styria, probably does not exist (his mother was the driving force/correction per wikipedia his pilgrimage to italy , either way I think the pressure would be on Charles of Styria to marry earlier (likely Charles V might say if he doesn't have kids or only daughters it's back to spain for the low countries) and someone nearer to the Low countries region for diplomatic reasons will be an excellent choice for a bride. We could have Charles & Marie Eleonore of Cleves (OTL duchess of prussia), Elisabeth I makes another good candidate (there were OTL negotiations but religion was an issue), Mary Queen of Scots, Claude of France or Margaret of Valois as part of peace with Spain following the Italian war of 1551-59, Renata (OTL duchess of Bavaria) of Lorraine to swing Lorraine more into the Habsburg camp.

On your other points I agree Spain is more relieved, rather the points of war will be Portugal & Italy. I can see Spain intervening on Savoy's behalf with regards to France to prevent them from getting a foothold in Italy.

This in return will cause more war between Austria and France due to Austrians owning the lowlands. So the idea that Austria can send many more resources to Hungary is silly. Especially if super ultra-Catholic Ferdinand II becomes ruler. Because then, the Dutch will revolt again. So more pain the ass.

Spain is more relieved. They miss a lot of tax income but avoiding the wars there is already a positive. More focus on Portugal, Americas, Italy and especially NO dutch interference in the East Indies.

So I just realised I confused the Styrian & Tyrolean lines in my response; and that you meant just a catholic zealot not necessary Ferdinand II himself.

Still stand by Ferdinand II not necessarily existing, rather than the candidates I mentioned earlier (better for Ferdinand of further austria if he gets the low countries) we'd see an Italian princess instead wed Charles, candidates could be Medici daughters (Maria, Isabella & Lucrezia); Lucrezia & Eleonore Este (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucrezia_d'Este_(1535–1598)#cite_note-1 ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonora_d'Este_(1537–1581)) to court the Este's away from France (their brother Alfonso did marry Charles of Styria's sister Barbara in 1565, so a double wedding could work) . Also the Gonzaga's Isabella (married a local noble who would later be governor of Milan she would've been born post 1533 so the age difference might not be too bad if Charles married young https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Ferdinando_d'Ávalos) or a daughter of France as part of the Italian war peace.

Now back to the low countries, I would assume (best cases scenario) that whoever ends up there, raises their kid there and given the changes of the era they'd be more knowledgeable of the politics of the region. At the beginning of the dutch revolt the region was still majority catholic, the real kicker was the harsh reaction of Spanish authorities, we wouldn't have that in this case so it could be side stepped. Not saying won't happen, but probably won't be as bad

 

[Benevolence]

Is there any chance that one of the monarchs of the smaller states in the HRE could have asked to be Emperor? This would have 2 benefits- one, the individual states wouldn't feel threatened, and two, it would probably prevent any centralization or related calamities for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure who would actually want it or be allowed to have it, though. Bohemia could just be ruled by someone not in the HRE if necessary.

I personally don't think there were any strong alternatives to the Habsburgs at this point at least among the electors. Saxony, Brandenburg & Palatinate were protestant by the time of Charles's abdication I believe. No really strong catholic entity apart from Bohemia & maybe Bavaria. I think, glad to hear other thoughts on this

 

[raharris1973]

OK, refurbishing the OP- is there any way we can have Charles marry Anne of Bohemia instead of Ferdinand, and then having a son who inherits Spain, Austria, Bohemia and Hungary, and Naples, while the Imperial title, all other HRE territories, and Milan are spun off to Ferdinand in retirement, and in the meantime, Ferdinand has married someone else? Maybe Isabella of Portugal, to keep things simpler. So Charles becomes King of Hungary in his lifetime and can get his son elected at his retirement.

 

[Benevolence]

OK, refurbishing the OP- is there any way we can have Charles marry Anne of Bohemia instead of Ferdinand, and then having a son who inherits Spain, Austria, Bohemia and Hungary, and Naples, while the Imperial title, all other HRE territories, and Milan are spun off to Ferdinand in retirement, and in the meantime, Ferdinand has married someone else? Maybe Isabella of Portugal, to keep things simpler. So Charles becomes King of Hungary in his lifetime and can get his son elected at his retirement.

For that I think we'd need Philipp the fair to live longer.

The only reason I say this is because I'm not sure how much sway Maximilian I had over Charles, the marriage treaty was organised in 1515 and I think by then Charles had been granted/had his majority recognised as a compromise with the local nobility with Maximilian (and some French input as well I believe), same thing had happened with Philipp the fair who's majority was recognised when I think he was 16, so Maximilian wouldn't have input in the affairs of the low countries. I guess it was easier to arrange for Ferdinand a minor (he was 12 I think) than the emancipated Charles who could reject it. Also according to wikipedia, Charles was under the sway of William of Croy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Croÿ), who manoeuvred this emancipation and influenced him away from his aunt, Margaret, who'd been appoint regent on Charles's behalf by Maximilian. William would go on to convince Charles to cancel his initial engagement to Isabella of Portugal for Mary Tudor among other things (which was later shuffled back again later, probably wasn't hard to convince Charles he's not married and so he sowed his wild oats, he had like 3 kids before he married Isabella; William overall seemed a decent advisor though, you can follow his rationale on somethings)

 

[JonasResende]

daughter of France as part of the Italian war peace.

Could make for fun times and Henri II might do the same with Karl of Styria as Karl V attempted to do with Charles II d'Orléans. Agree that Karl is to get a French princess (Élisabeth/Claude) on the understanding that he gets given Milan (unlikely since its in Spanish hands after the Sforzas extinction) or the Low Countries to rule. The Habsburgs agree with no real intention of playing along, and Henri rattles his saber a couple times with the intention of threatening war if they don't. Not sure if its plausible but Elisabeth WAS betrothed to a Habsburg prince after Edward VI's death, didn't really specify which branch would get her. So a double marriage between her and her brother to Karl and his niece might work