Constitutional Monarchy in Russia, No Revolution

If we are talking about a Constitutional Monarchy by 1914- possibly much earlier- I wonder whether Russia might have taken a different view of events leading to WW1.

It is possible that Pan Slavism would be stronger - in which case you get the same commitment to Serbia and the same outcome.

It is also possible that other forces, not liking militarism, would have meant that Russia would just have left Serbia to its fate- hence no a WW1.
 
What angle does Hitler use to rise to power? In my Imperial Russia scenario/timeline, I chose to have the Communists win the original civil war for this reason. If they didn't, I knew Hitler wouldn't have the "Red menace" angle to play, and likely would be able to get elected.

So what could Hitler do to still come to power in 1933?

A constitutional monarchy in Russia means no Red Menace. If the Nazis could not have come to power without that enemy, then World War II as we know it would have been averted.

Germany still had a bone to pick with France, but could have gone after French colonies and not created a war in Europe.
 
If we are talking about a Constitutional Monarchy by 1914- possibly much earlier- I wonder whether Russia might have taken a different view of events leading to WW1.

It is possible that Pan Slavism would be stronger - in which case you get the same commitment to Serbia and the same outcome.

It is also possible that other forces, not liking militarism, would have meant that Russia would just have left Serbia to its fate- hence no a WW1.

Avoiding World War I brings up some huge changes. The borders drawn at Versailles tended to follow linguistic lines, giving the various ethnic groups countries of their own.

The 19th century arrangements would have persisted into the twenties and thirties, when rapid modernization (including radio) changed the developed world. Austria-Hungary would have remained an agglomeration of many nationalities; Poland would have remained a region divided between three countries. More countries would have accommodated multiple languages. Could the result have been an early day EU?
 
Avoiding World War I brings up some huge changes. The borders drawn at Versailles tended to follow linguistic lines, giving the various ethnic groups countries of their own.

The 19th century arrangements would have persisted into the twenties and thirties, when rapid modernization (including radio) changed the developed world. Austria-Hungary would have remained an agglomeration of many nationalities; Poland would have remained a region divided between three countries. More countries would have accommodated multiple languages. Could the result have been an early day EU?

It's quite possible, although if the whole Russian Empire joined it, it would be considerably larger than just Europe as we know it. If all the European powers and Russia could actually lay down the sword, we might be looking at an incipient world order.
 
An early EU might require a POD around 1870 (Franco-Prussian War). Let railroad commerce foster cooperation as Germany and Italy are unified, and the trend might spread, especially if a constitutional Russia is possible circa 1881. This topic might be the subject of a different thread.
 
A fear of "the reds" or "the mob" existed before Lenin's 1917 coup and still exists in some places today.

Hitler also believed that Slavs were inherently inferior. Of course a key difference with OTL assuming a Hitler emerged is that there ought be little difficultry in an Western Russian alliance
 

Stalker

Banned
Kaiser Kris said:
I think the concern about whether the Ukraine would be independent or not is a worthwhile one, but I tend to agree that it was not an insoluable problem. As for what you've proposed about the assassins of Alexander II- I'm intrigued about that possibility. And it would limit the damage that that idiot Nicholas II could do before, perhaps, another accident happens to allow Mikhail to come to the throne. Or, perhaps, one could swap an assassination of one Tsar for another. But perhaps, instead make it an ultra-monarchist who shoots down Nicholas II around 1900?
Strong Russia may bestow Poland with the independence but never Ukraine. Without Ukraine Russia, well, She simpy looses its pretensions for historical and cultural heritage of Kiev Russ. They simply are INCAPABLE to admit that Little Russians (Ukrainians) are not one of Russian ethnic subgroups but have already formed a separate nation of their own.:(

If you have an ultra-monarchist kill Nicholas II in 1900 or let Japanese Sanzo Tsuda do it even earlier, al you get is continuation of Russian authocraty and no Constitution. If we have Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich ascending to the throne, you'll have another variation of Czar Michael's world (CMW - МЦМ), that same world that has already two detailed timelines on the Russian AH-Board and four more discussed.:rolleyes:
 
Stalker - Czar Michael's world - That sounds interesting - is it/are they in English? Do you have a link? My Google Fu is weak and I couldn't find a Russian AH - board.
 
A Constitutional semi- democratic Russia with a relatively stable Market Economy would change a lot of things. However some interesting questions occur;
1. WW1, the starvation, the crises, how would a Constitutional Russia handle it.
2. Will there be a Bretsk- Litovsk or will Russia be a victor perhaps taking East Galizia in Versailles. What about Russian claims on Constantinople?
3. The state of Constitutional Russia;
a) elections, will everyone be able to participate or are leftist groups like Mensheviks and Left SR banned?
b)parliamentarism, has the elected duma any power, or is the real power still in the Czar's office. is the Government appointed by the duma or the czar?
c) Market Economy, how great will the reforms be and how well will they be recieved by the Russian people
4. Minorities, how great would the autonomy for Finns, Poles, Estonians etc. be. Will there be a separate Polish Kingdom and Finnish Grand Principality in a Personal Union with Russia, or will they be concidered parts of Russia proper?

sidenote; without a communist state there will be no red scare, and both Mussolini and Hitler will probably fail. Mussolini might even still be a socialist in this TL.
 
A Constitutional semi- democratic Russia with a relatively stable Market Economy would change a lot of things. However some interesting questions occur;
1. WW1, the starvation, the crises, how would a Constitutional Russia handle it.



2. Will there be a Bretsk- Litovsk or will Russia be a victor perhaps taking East Galizia in Versailles. What about Russian claims on Constantinople?


3. The state of Constitutional Russia;
a) elections, will everyone be able to participate or are leftist groups like Mensheviks and Left SR banned?



b)parliamentarism, has the elected duma any power, or is the real power still in the Czar's office. is the Government appointed by the duma or the czar?



c) Market Economy, how great will the reforms be and how well will they be recieved by the Russian people.



4. Minorities, how great would the autonomy for Finns, Poles, Estonians etc. be. Will there be a separate Polish Kingdom and Finnish Grand Principality in a Personal Union with Russia, or will they be concidered parts of Russia proper?

sidenote; without a communist state there will be no red scare, and both Mussolini and Hitler will probably fail. Mussolini might even still be a socialist in this TL.

A Constitutional Russian state may very well do better in World War I, and would also find an easier time getting international assistence in the postwar period with any famines. It's hard to predict exactly, though.

Constitutional-democratic Russia may have little use for Constantinople, it seems to me to be the project of Holy Russia, not to mention a fool's crusade. Solid relations with a Turkish republic might be more useful anyway.

I've wondered about, perhaps, a less severe Brest-Litovsk, where the Germans seize Congress Poland and Lithuania, perhaps some Belorussian or Ukrainian territory, but far less than IRL, and then Russia getting back most of that land, except for Congress Poland. East Galicia would likely either end up in Russian hands or be divided between Russia and the new Polish state.

My idea was that either every party could participate, or, possibly, that extreme leftists (and rightists) might be omitted from the process. If things go well, the socialist movement may very well turn into a Western-style non-revolutionary socialist movement anyway.

The elected Duma would have real power. The idea is for constitutionalism to be actually significant, rather than a gloss over Tsarist power. I expect that for a while, however, the Tsar and his ministers will have considerable influence over the government, particularly in foreign affairs. Russian democracy will blossom gently.

I anticipate that the Russian economy will eventually end up as a mixed-market economy, possibly comparable to the Scandinavian countries or just a little less so. One of the major economic programmes of the Russian government might be the encouragement of the 'kulak' class in the hopes of creating a strong class of independent farmers. Economic development may be slightly slower than the Soviet version, but it will also be less brutal and probably better received. I'm sure it won't all be tea and stroganoff, but some of the problems created could be explained, simply, as being necessary in order to build a stronger nation.

As for minority policy, there will likely develop some form of autonomy for non-Russian minorities, including the Baltic peoples, but also the Muslim peoples of Central Asia and others. As for Poland, in the long term, my suspicion is that it would end up as an independent state, either in personal union, or without any formal ties to the Russian Tsar. Finland would either recieve some sort of home rule or satellite status.
 
A fear of "the reds" or "the mob" existed before Lenin's 1917 coup and still exists in some places today.

Hitler also believed that Slavs were inherently inferior. Of course a key difference with OTL assuming a Hitler emerged is that there ought be little difficultry in an Western Russian alliance

I bet there would be hardly any difficulty at all for Britain and France to ally themselves to a Russian constitutional monarchy with developing democratic institutions. In which case, Hitler is doomed.
 
As for China, Mao Zedong would have no communist example to follow and that country would be ripe for invasion.
Without CCP, I expect Chiang would unify ROC & fight off Japan. And in TTL, with Britain less broke, she'd be more inclined to resist U.S. pressure to drop this, which would help keep her out of a suicide pact with Germany. Also, there'd probably be aid to ROC from Russia, France, Germany, & U.S., as OTL. Sino-Japanese War probably still begins around 1931 as OTL, but Britain & U.S. might jointly mediate a treaty, without Japan's suicidal attack on Pearl Harbor.

Given a less disastrous (compared to OTL) WW1, there's a chance of a less-calamitous-than-OTL postwar Germany, hence no rise of Hitler/Nazis. It's also possible no U.S. involvement means no use of marginal land for farming means no Dustbowl (tho there'd still be drought). Great Depression anyhow? Maybe not, without the OTL lunatic reparations cycle. I'd guess a Crash, seeing the speculation driven by loose Fed money, as OTL, but maybe not Smoot-Hawley. If what I've read about HMG efforts to support the pound is true, maybe not even a Crash, without the lunatic reparations cycle, but I'm not sure there's a relationship, so I wouldn't butterfly out the bubble or the Crash, myself, absent better information.

Without SU/Stalin & PacWar, no Korean War, no Korean partition... Without Hitler, no WW2, no occupation of EEur, no Berlin Wall, no Berlin Airlift... No nukes, no MAD. Maybe no Space Race:eek: or Moon landing.:eek::eek: And highly likely, IMO, no Israel, no endless war in the Mideast, no '70s Oil Shock, & the Horsepower Wars last into the '80s,:D:D by which time the Camaro XS has a 900ci big block & Caddys are half a city block long & weigh as much as a PT boat.:eek::p (Or maybe not.:p)
 
Without USSR, we won't have a Communist China but fascism as we know it wouldn't exist. Hitler and Mussolini would not have come to power, not saying crazy nationalism wouldn't eventually take over Germany and Italy, but fascims movements thriving on anti- communism would not exist because communism would be weak and insignificant.
 
Without USSR, we won't have a Communist China but fascism as we know it wouldn't exist. Hitler and Mussolini would not have come to power, not saying crazy nationalism wouldn't eventually take over Germany and Italy, but fascims movements thriving on anti- communism would not exist because communism would be weak and insignificant.

I disagree about Mussolini, but fascism would be different if it existed in this timeline.

I wonder about the fate of Central Asia and the southern Caucasus in this timeline.
 
I wonder about the fate of Central Asia and the southern Caucasus in this timeline.
Locals will be killed and their lend will be taken by Russian colonists. Same as in Argentina or USA.


Also, there'd probably be aid to ROC from Russia,
Don\t think so. Russia need land in China. I guess they will share China with Japan. And then will be wathcing fight for China between West and Japan to take loser's legacy (I think it will be Japan)

Without SU/Stalin & PacWar, no Korean War, no Korean partition...
Maybe. But in the year 1950 Russian population is about 300 million, 80 or 70% jf them peasants. There are not so much land in Russia to satisfy them. By this time lans in Central Asia, Siberia, Manshuria and Northern Iran is over. Russia MUST start a new war with anyone to get more land, not because she is evel but otherwise there will be revolution. But unlike wars you said, it won't be ideological war, but usual war for land, water and gold.

I bet there would be hardly any difficulty at all for Britain and France to ally themselves to a Russian constitutional monarchy with developing democratic institutions. In which case, Hitler is doomed.
I don't think Hitler even come to power in Germany.
By the way, who said that Versal will be easier for Germany in this world? I think that, if union between France and Russia is alive, they will simply tear Germany apart there and never let them ressurect.

Stalker - Czar Michael's world - That sounds interesting - is it/are they in English? Do you have a link? My Google Fu is weak and I couldn't find a Russian AH - board.
I can give you a link but it is in Russian only. There are hundged megabytes of discussion, it is impossible to translate.
 
Ukraine will not be emerged as an independent country if Russia did not to communism. Reversed Versailles treaty. Russian territory would expand further after World War I. I will presume that there will be no communism in Eastern Europe and China. Russian industrialization will continue and by 1980, per capita of Russia is similar to Italy or Spain. Russia is the third largest economy by 1980 behind United States and Japan. Population of 350 million people by 2000.

Per capita - maybe.
Economy - I guess there will be number two but not very behind from No 1 - USA
Population - 300 million by 1950. I am afraid that by 1980 it might be over 500. So, I think there will be huge emigration from Russia to Europa, Americas and colonies of European powers.
 
I think you have to go back further than around the year 1900 as your POD.

Have Russia industrialize a lot more during The Industrial Revolution in the middle of the 1800's. Perhaps not to the extent that countries like England, Germany, and The United States did, but still a lot more than they did in OTL.

Eliminate the assassination of Alexander II and successfully impliment the reforms Alexander II was going to grant. Make those reforms more liberal than the ones he wanted to grant in OTL. Perhaps The Duma is established under Alexander II, or perhaps even earlier.

You may want to go back even further and have a number of small steps and a series of reforms beginning in the late 1700's continuing through the 1800's so that by the 1890's Russia is a Constitutional Monarchy not unlike Great Brittain. I would say go back at least to Nicholas I. At any rate a POD around 1900 just isn't going to do it, not enough time to make enough reforms.

I think if a Constitutional Monarchy Russia was fairly well industrialized but not to the extent of England, Germany, or The United States, it might have weathered The Depression fairly well. A fairly large rural population means people can raise food and feed themselves so less problem with starvation. My parents grew up here in The USA on farms in the 1930's. My mother says she didn't know they were poor, they had plenty to eat, a warm coat in winter, etc, so they didn't think of themselves as poor.

Even if you butterfly away The Russian Revolution, make Russia a Constitutional Monarchy, I still think Hitler will come to power in Germany and WWII will go a lot like it did in OTL.

A Red Scare was one tool Hitler used but far from his only or most powerful tool to come to power. Germany was terribly humiliated and made impotent by the treaty that ended WWI. The Depression devestated Germany's economy. Hitler came to power promising to make Germany proud, powerful, and prosperous again, and he blamed Germany's problems on The Jews. Those things would still have been there as in OTL.

The difference would have been the post WWII world. A post war world with no spread of Communism as in OTL, no Red Scare, no Cold War at least as we know it.
 
I wonder what this does with the creation of the League of Nations/United Nations.


I think there would still be a League of Nations pretty much as in OTL. In fact in OTL The USSR was a member until I think 1938. So I'm guessing in TTL there would still be a League of Nations with Tsraist Russia as a mamber.

I'm also guessing The United States Senate will reject America becomming a member as they did in OTL.

As for The United Nations, probably the same as in OTL except that one of the permanent members of The Security Council is Russia with The Tsar as official head of state in a constitutional monarchy much like that in The UK.

I think if Russia had gone the route of becomming a constitutional monarchy it would have been patterned pretty close to the way it is in The UK.
 
A fairly large rural population means people can raise food and feed themselves so less problem with starvation. My parents grew up here in The USA on farms in the 1930's. My mother says she didn't know they were poor, they had plenty to eat, a warm coat in winter, etc, so they didn't think of themselves as poor.

The thing is USA in 30th did not suffer of... how to say it... rural overpopulation? The main problem of Russia thos time - to many peasant people. They did not have enough land to raise food... And this problem in fact is much more important then any revolutioners.


A Red Scare was one tool Hitler used but far from his only or most powerful tool to come to power. Germany was terribly humiliated and made impotent by the treaty that ended WWI. The Depression devestated Germany's economy. Hitler came to power promising to make Germany proud, powerful, and prosperous again, and he blamed Germany's problems on The Jews
You are right and you are not right at the same time. There was many factors which brought Hitler to power. In the world of Tsarist Russia this factors would be different.
You shold keep in mind that French-Russian military alliance is still alive. In this situation even if Hitler became fuerer of Grossdeutschereich France and Russian armies would occupy Germany as soon as he refuce to maintaine Versal treaty.
The most funny thing is that it is possible that in Versal Entente would split Germany in several pieces in this world.

think there would still be a League of Nations pretty much as in OTL
Well, League was founded mostly thanks to Wilson. If there is revolution in Russia WWI would be finished by Dec 1917- Feb 1918. In this case USA do not have enough authority and Wilson's positions would be much weaker than in our world.

I think if Russia had gone the route of becomming a constitutional monarchy it would have been patterned pretty close to the way it is in The UK.

Do you mean revolution and Sir Oliver Cromvel (I think it is wrong spelling)?:D
I think if our POD is 1900 the best way would be to use Japanise experience :cool:
 
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