Cool I'll read it and if you want any comments I would be happy too. How late will it be?
Confederate Navy
- Thread starter ConfederateFly
- Start date
Straha, how late will it be? I think the Confederates by WW 1 would have a good arsenal of U-Boat type design ships.
I think the Confederates by WW 1 would have a good arsenal of U-Boat type design ships.
At the begginning of the ACW the recently defunct East India Company offered 10 new ships and some other older ships to the Confederacy. What types of ships would be offered in this TL?
Grey Wolf
Donor
The CSA in the real world
This is jumping around a lot. Here's a few comments from the Wolfian
1. There is no chance of re-establishing the slave trade. The Confederacy does not want to do this. Even disregarding every other factor, that is the key. It is outlawed in the Confederate constitution not for some liberal humanitarian reason enforced from outside, but because its against the interests of their own economy. The sale of slaves, the breeding of slaves (if you wish) is an element of the internal economy and is too important to be jeopardised.
2. The OTL Confederate navy is a mix of high seas raiding cruisers and close-to-shore proto-ironclads which are not seagoing nor real power-projection vessels. There is nothing to rival Britain's Warrior for example.
3. The very essence of the Confederacy is as little central control as possible. Its not about to turn into some authoritarian power hungry country wanting to impose its will on the outside world. Conservatism is a by-word here. The army will be maintained like any other army - what was successful in the 1860s will be seen as key for future wars. And it is also TRUE - cavalry is far from obselete, and was far from obselete in WW1. Given SPACE cavalry will be essential. There is no impetus to invent anything like the tank unless the whole front of an already existing war is bogged down - just look at the OTL origins of the thing.
4. The navy will develop from the OTL navy, again in a spirit of conservatism. There is the likelihood for the in-shore ironclad idea to develop into coast defence battleships, but at best we are looking at the Swedish type here - and that is the best scenario. The high seas raiding cruisers offer the best chance to develop a power projection capability, but this is not a battleforce. This is a force which can intervene in theatres, join with others to enforce Western interests, and can show the flag. In war they can threaten trade.
5. Given all this, it is however possible for the Confederacy to grow. Part of this depends on what land it took from the Union in the first place - if they split the New Mexico teritory on formal independence, then there is more chance of gaining Mexican territory than if they are looking into Mexico purely from Texas. Even so, Mexico is not easily going to be persuaded to SELL its own territory ! It thought it gave away too much at Guadeloupe-Hidalgo in the first place (San Diego especially) and although one can posit Maximillian selling land for security and to rescue his finances, I would think that Turtledove has the maximum here - Chihuahua and Sonora are the least populace provinces.
6. Spain is NOT a walk-over. It has a powerful navy - by the 1890s the state of the navy had degraded, but look at the ships, their number and their age. Ten years earlier these were a powerful force, and the CSA is not going to have any qualitative advantage over them. Its POSSIBLE to take on the Spanish navy and win, of course it is, but its not certain, it will likely be costly and its no sure thing. Even if the states are behind the Confederate government in wanting a war, it will be a deeply argued and momentous decision and it will be LOCAL. The war will be over Cuba. There is the possibility for it to spill over into San Domingo (OTL Spain abandoned efforts to recolonise it upon the Union victory...here they may not) and even Puerto Rico, but never the Philipinnes.
7. Given a best case scenario, the CSA can enter the twentieth century with a couple of Mexican provinces, with Spain's Caribbean possessions, with a navy in the process of building second class battleships on the back of victories, and cruisers showing the flag around the world, with Confederate involvement in the Boxer Rebellion etc. Its army will be mainly cavalry on land and marines for overseas.
Grey Wolf
This is jumping around a lot. Here's a few comments from the Wolfian
1. There is no chance of re-establishing the slave trade. The Confederacy does not want to do this. Even disregarding every other factor, that is the key. It is outlawed in the Confederate constitution not for some liberal humanitarian reason enforced from outside, but because its against the interests of their own economy. The sale of slaves, the breeding of slaves (if you wish) is an element of the internal economy and is too important to be jeopardised.
2. The OTL Confederate navy is a mix of high seas raiding cruisers and close-to-shore proto-ironclads which are not seagoing nor real power-projection vessels. There is nothing to rival Britain's Warrior for example.
3. The very essence of the Confederacy is as little central control as possible. Its not about to turn into some authoritarian power hungry country wanting to impose its will on the outside world. Conservatism is a by-word here. The army will be maintained like any other army - what was successful in the 1860s will be seen as key for future wars. And it is also TRUE - cavalry is far from obselete, and was far from obselete in WW1. Given SPACE cavalry will be essential. There is no impetus to invent anything like the tank unless the whole front of an already existing war is bogged down - just look at the OTL origins of the thing.
4. The navy will develop from the OTL navy, again in a spirit of conservatism. There is the likelihood for the in-shore ironclad idea to develop into coast defence battleships, but at best we are looking at the Swedish type here - and that is the best scenario. The high seas raiding cruisers offer the best chance to develop a power projection capability, but this is not a battleforce. This is a force which can intervene in theatres, join with others to enforce Western interests, and can show the flag. In war they can threaten trade.
5. Given all this, it is however possible for the Confederacy to grow. Part of this depends on what land it took from the Union in the first place - if they split the New Mexico teritory on formal independence, then there is more chance of gaining Mexican territory than if they are looking into Mexico purely from Texas. Even so, Mexico is not easily going to be persuaded to SELL its own territory ! It thought it gave away too much at Guadeloupe-Hidalgo in the first place (San Diego especially) and although one can posit Maximillian selling land for security and to rescue his finances, I would think that Turtledove has the maximum here - Chihuahua and Sonora are the least populace provinces.
6. Spain is NOT a walk-over. It has a powerful navy - by the 1890s the state of the navy had degraded, but look at the ships, their number and their age. Ten years earlier these were a powerful force, and the CSA is not going to have any qualitative advantage over them. Its POSSIBLE to take on the Spanish navy and win, of course it is, but its not certain, it will likely be costly and its no sure thing. Even if the states are behind the Confederate government in wanting a war, it will be a deeply argued and momentous decision and it will be LOCAL. The war will be over Cuba. There is the possibility for it to spill over into San Domingo (OTL Spain abandoned efforts to recolonise it upon the Union victory...here they may not) and even Puerto Rico, but never the Philipinnes.
7. Given a best case scenario, the CSA can enter the twentieth century with a couple of Mexican provinces, with Spain's Caribbean possessions, with a navy in the process of building second class battleships on the back of victories, and cruisers showing the flag around the world, with Confederate involvement in the Boxer Rebellion etc. Its army will be mainly cavalry on land and marines for overseas.
Grey Wolf
ConfederateFly said:
By Duquenese
This was what I was trying to get in my TL of the Confederate Navy. What do u guys think of what he posted?
How would the Confederate Navy be different in the ATL if somebody like William Yancy or David Yulee would be Sec. of the Navy?
By Duquense
Also How would the Confederate Navy be like in the ATL if David Yulee or William Lowdes Yancy is picked to be the Secretary of Navy?
Quote:
1862- US Gold supply split with CS, GB turns over those three ships the CS had built in England. The CSN starts with these state of the Art 48 gun Frigates. Given the HMS Warlord? as a example. the next group of ships would be Iron hulled, built in England. by 1868 Norfolk-Newport Mews would be repaired. the CS would start making Surport ships for the Engligh built Frigates, along with lots of small Coastal Ships [sloops & Schoneers] designed to Break any attemped Blockade. This spurt whould be over by the mid '70s, leaving the CSN with a couple dozen Frigates, and a gross of Smaller ships. The War inducted need to compete with the USN dieing out. The South would turn to building it's Merchat Marine. In the latter '80s the CSN whould take a look at what was going on, and start a program to replace it's older Fleet ships with new Steamer-Sail ships, And it's Coast fleet with state of the art Steam Monitors. There wouldn't be any reason to expand so this would be an ongoing process of slow replacement. So at the time of the Nicraguguan War. The CSN would have a half dozen new fleet vessals,a dozen and a half older 1860's era frigates, along with 2 dozen new steam Moniters [If they refuel in Mexico they could make it ] and 100 smaller Ships.
By Duquense
Also How would the Confederate Navy be like in the ATL if David Yulee or William Lowdes Yancy is picked to be the Secretary of Navy?
1862- US Gold supply split with CS, GB turns over those three ships the CS had built in England. The CSN starts with these state of the Art 48 gun Frigates. Given the HMS Warlord? as a example. the next group of ships would be Iron hulled, built in England. by 1868 Norfolk-Newport Mews would be repaired. the CS would start making Surport ships for the Engligh built Frigates, along with lots of small Coastal Ships [sloops & Schoneers] designed to Break any attemped Blockade. This spurt whould be over by the mid '70s, leaving the CSN with a couple dozen Frigates, and a gross of Smaller ships. The War inducted need to compete with the USN dieing out. The South would turn to building it's Merchat Marine. In the latter '80s the CSN whould take a look at what was going on, and start a program to replace it's older Fleet ships with new Steamer-Sail ships, And it's Coast fleet with state of the art Steam Monitors. There wouldn't be any reason to expand so this would be an ongoing process of slow replacement. So at the time of the Nicraguguan War. The CSN would have a half dozen new fleet vessals,a dozen and a half older 1860's era frigates, along with 2 dozen new steam Moniters [If they refuel in Mexico they could make it ] and 100 smaller Ships.
By Duquense
Also How would the Confederate Navy be like in the ATL if David Yulee or William Lowdes Yancy is picked to be the Secretary of Navy?
Also How would the Confederate Navy be like in the ATL if David Yulee or William Lowdes Yancy is picked to be the Secretary of Navy?
Also How would the Confederate Navy be like in the ATL if David Yulee or William Lowdes Yancy is picked to be the Secretary of Navy?
That sounds fine? Also does anybody know about the C.S.A. navy besides me? Have you looked at the Confederate Superpower thread?