Challenge/Plausibility Check: Pro-Competition and Pro-Market Socialism

The core analysis of Socialism is that the root of most social problems in industrial society stems from the laborers not owning the land and capital upon which they depend to make a living.

In this sense it is technically possible to be socialist and also be in favor of a competitive market structure. Marx infamously had the American sections of the 1st International thrown out because most of them were of this inclination.

What would be required for such a view, that the Market and Competition are forces for good but thwarted by the evil monopolist/absentee-capitalist/absentee-landlord to become the dominant socialist tendency the world over?
 
Make them work. Have them gain consensus in a great enough number of communities that prove themselves viable, most likely in the US and Canada.
Some US states could adopt such views, and if they prove economically competitive with Capitalist ones, you'll have a strong movement. It might prove very strong over time in countries like Germany and Scandinavia, and probably also Australia and NZ (Australia had a fairly strong and early Democratic Labor movement OTL).
 
One thing that probably hurt OTL was that most of the people of this particular inclination were anarchists.
 
For the record--Marx's analysis resists reduction to some sort of capsule prescription of what is good and what is bad, for all time. The point of his historical materialism is to try and understand dynamic processes, systems that change in their nature as they evolve in particular.

The fundamental thing, according to Marx, is that people create wealth by working together cooperatively; capitalism (once the preconditions for it have first been established) lets that happen on autopilot as it were. To improve on it, one must override the autopilot intelligently and consciously.

So--the classic simplification of Marxist evolutionary political economy is, that capitalism is an essential stage a developing society must go through. Capitalism allows the basic human survival trick, which is intelligent cooperation, to be harnessed more efficiently than any prior society could, without the need for an overarching planning system which has no basis as yet. The robust dynamism of capitalism comes at a price--several prices in fact. Basically capitalism is anarchic, in that there is not and cannot be (as long as ownership of private property is seen as a fundamental right rather than an expedient mechanism) a general plan to steer it, and so Marx spends a lot of ink in Capital analyzing the business cycle, showing how it concentrates the commanding power of capitalist ownership into fewer and fewer hands.

Meanwhile, more and more of the productive labor force is transformed into proletarians. The point of being proletarian is not so much that you suffer absolute scarcity--actually the rising standard of living is perfectly sensible in Marxist terms. But wealth is power, and the great and increasing disparity of relative wealth means that the working classes are more and more marginalized politically--especially if we broaden the concept of politics away from formal electoral politics to include all the modes whereby people are persuaded or coerced to act in accordance with some organized plan.

The dynamic of capitalism thus alienates the majority of people from any socially recognized say over their lives, while de facto putting the routine levers of the social machine more and more into their hands. At some point, said Marx the revolutionary (in passages that are remarkably short and schematic compared to the great detail he expends analyzing capitalism itself) the workers take over, being already organized into complex hierarchial systems by capitalists.

Thus, Marx denied that there was some particular set of rules to the capitalist game that would be fair and eternally sustainable. But it is not inconsistent with the basic Marxist outlook to suppose that in particular circumstances, it makes sense to lay down some modified rules of capitalist competition, refereed and subject to rolling revisions by a democratic majority guided by scientific economic theory toward a goal of greater and greater equality and higher development and productivity all around.

Well, I just wrote an outline of what I call "social capitalism" here.

Marx might well disown me, but this is the sort of thing I think might be workable under Marxist principles.
 
If by "planning" you mean a single type of bread being made instead of 'wasting' resources on making both white and rye, then I consider this 'price' to be a virtue.
 
Aranfan

Sounds like what you're suggesting is a more organised populism or anti-trust situation where people/government prevent large economic privately owned establishments being produced, or at least preventing them becoming controlled by a small number of people? Possibly if the various pension organisation payed more attention to the broader picture of long term investment rather than immediate gain?

The problem of course is that concentration of power and wealth is fairly easy and simply to achieve and difficult to reverse once it gets moving as there are huge vested interests in maintaining such a situation. Difficult to avoid swinging to the other extreme as well when pressure builds up.

Steve

The core analysis of Socialism is that the root of most social problems in industrial society stems from the laborers not owning the land and capital upon which they depend to make a living.

In this sense it is technically possible to be socialist and also be in favor of a competitive market structure. Marx infamously had the American sections of the 1st International thrown out because most of them were of this inclination.

What would be required for such a view, that the Market and Competition are forces for good but thwarted by the evil monopolist/absentee-capitalist/absentee-landlord to become the dominant socialist tendency the world over?
 
If recently read something by Lenin about NEP and the peasant question.
His main concern with free peasants was that they brougth the "chaotic" world of free trade and thereby capitalism and money back into the socialist economy.
 
Aranfan

Sounds like what you're suggesting is a more organised populism or anti-trust situation where people/government prevent large economic privately owned establishments being produced, or at least preventing them becoming controlled by a small number of people? Possibly if the various pension organisation payed more attention to the broader picture of long term investment rather than immediate gain?

Something like that.

The problem of course is that concentration of power and wealth is fairly easy and simply to achieve and difficult to reverse once it gets moving as there are huge vested interests in maintaining such a situation. Difficult to avoid swinging to the other extreme as well when pressure builds up.

Steve


Actually, most of the time the concentration of power and wealth in industry has been caused by the Government. Either through direct grants of monopoly or through policies that followed from running a war.

Specifically in the USA in the aftermath of the Civil War, "Substantive Due Process" was a code word for the dismantling of legal protections against businesses doing whatever the hell they wanted.
 
Last edited:
Actually, most of the time the concentration of power and wealth in industry has been caused by the Government. Either through direct grants of monopoly or through policies that followed from running a war.

A lot of truth there.;) Especially in earlier days when governments themselves were basically concentrations of power in a small elite.

Specifically in the USA in the aftermath of the Civil War, "Substantive Due Process" was a code word for the dismantling of legal protections against businesses doing whatever the hell they wanted.

That is a problem of such interests taking over government for their own use. We're been seeing a lot of this the last few decades ourselves.:(

Steve
 
Self-Management in Yugoslavia a brief overview (after 1900 solution)

The aim of the Yugoslav shift from Stalinist economics was to redefine the party as a source of ideological guidance, eliminating its political power over the economy. This would follow the true spirit of Marxism by giving the people control over their economic destiny. "The factories to the workers" was the slogan of the decade. The architect behind this ideologie was Edvard Kardelj

History
In 1950 the Basic Law on the Management of State Economic Enterprises by Working Collectives was introduced to establish workers' participation in the management of their own enterprises. The basic law decentralized planning, turning it over to local communes and workers' councils and incorporated the principles of self-management into all aspects of public life. Central authorities outlined only general economic guidelines rather than imposing mandatory targets from a centralized command structure. The state retained control over the appointment of enterprise directors and the allocation of investment resources, however, thereby retaining considerable de facto control over the economy.
The organization of enterprises operating under socialist selfmanagement was elaborated further in the 1974 Constitution and the Law on Associated Labor of 1976.
The original self-management concept redesignated enterprises as work organizations of associated labor and divided them into smaller units at the level of factory departments. Each smaller unit, a BOAL, was a self-managed entity, financially and commercially independent. As members of basic organizations, workers had the right to attend general meetings and elect and serve on workers' councils. The councils were elected bodies that formulated business policy and plans, made investment and borrowing decisions, approved enterprise accounts, and gave final approval to directors and management boards. Despite these extensive nominal powers, however, decisions by the workers' councils were heavily influenced by enterprise directors, who were appointed by the League of Communists of Yugoslavia , as the CPY was called after 1952. Only one-third of the committees nominating enterprise directors could come from the councils; the remainder were members of local communes and trade unions, all still controlled by the LCY in 1990. In the final step, the workers' council chose from the nominating committee's list of candidates, but in most cases the list contained only one name at that stage.
Work communities were developed for white-collar clerical, administrative, and technical workers of the labor organizations. Also self-managed, the work communities resembled the BOALs but provided fewer rights and responsibilities to their members. Self-managed communities of interest were established by basic organizations to provide transportation, communications, education, and health services for production workers. Complex organizations of associated labor provided vertical and horizontal integration to improve cooperation and specialization among work organizations and their component units.

Economic Planning
In 1990 the Yugoslav economy ostensibly operated on a system of economic planning. Throughout the 1960s and the early 1970s, planning was "indicative": federal authorities handed down plans with detailed, specific goals to be achieved, with little input from below. In 1976 a radically new system of voluntary planning, called "social planning," was established. Plans of five years or longer were formulated from the bottom up, with the participation and agreement of all parties concerned.
The planning process started when federal authorities announced the timetable for the overall plan and major intermediate goals. Following the general government program, enterprises and their subordinate organizations drew up microplans, while macroplans were formulated within and among all the local governments and self-managed communities of interest. This was done simultaneously at all levels without any hierarchical approval system. Individual plans were modified through discussion with all parties concerned; the result was then written into binding social contracts. Enterprises and other bodies constructed self-management agreements that addressed specific aspects of the plan, such as the supply of materials and the amount of new capacity required. Annual assessments and adjustments provided adaptability to changing conditions. The Yugoslav economy's dependence on imported technical equipment for growth meant that changing world markets often made such adjustments necessary.
The consensual approach to planning proved ineffective in Yugoslavia. It was time-consuming and, because social compacts were voluntary and therefore unenforceable, plans were largely ignored except in rare instances of federal government intervention. Extreme decentralization of planning also meant that cooperative projects among republics and provinces were not well coordinated. This inefficiency particularly hindered development of national solutions for maintaining the energy balance and distributing foreign exchange.

Reform
There were several attempt to reform the system. In 1982 the new Yugoslav government was faced with a serious economic crisis that included rising unemployment, prices, and national debt. In 1983 the national sense of crisis was strong enough that the Federal Assembly passed austerity measures that temporarily curbed spending and controlled inflation
In 1983 the Long-Term Economic Stabilization Program (also known as the Krajgher Commission Report) was issued, after two years of debate, as the official blueprint for economic reform.
The Krajgher Report was evidence that even in 1983 most Yugoslav politicians agreed in theory that development of a market economy was necessary to restimulate growth throughout the country. But in practice this would have meant a drastic reduction in the policy--making role of the LCY, hence a total repudiation of the Tito legacy. Free enterprise also would mean that government agencies at all levels would lose their control of economic affairs. For these reasons, market reform met strong institutional resistance. The alternative reform, a return to Stalinist central planning, had few Yugoslav advocates in the mid-1980s and was totally discredited by the fall of central planning governments across Eastern Europe in the late 1980s.
While the government debated reform, the self-management system further dispersed control over economic and financial resources vital to the national economy. In the 1960s and 1970s, individual enterprises had formed alliances with local party machines, protecting uneconomical industries by giving them disproportionate influence on policy making, and eroding regional support for price and wage controls. Many of the short-term austerity measures of 1983 were relaxed by the national government even before their expiration dates. The national political system then drifted into inaction, ignoring the need for fundamental economic reform that had been obvious since 1980.

POD?
The trick is to keep a strong democratic federal state too avoid a catastrophic breakup, the loss of a strong domestic market and the splintering into small walled of regions (there were inner tariffs in OTL) etc but on the other side there a more efficient hence market economic system has to be implemented to keep the economy from collapsing.
The best way to achieve both would be your proposed socialist worker-controlled pro-competition market economy with a strong federal parliament quenching dangerous separatist movements. There were many competing fractions and an very open debate so it shouldn’t be to unlikely that one of the parties (one of the more liberal fractions) is coming up with this plan and succeeding


(further information on http://www.country-data.com/frd/cs/yutoc.html#yu0037 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edvard_Kardelj)
 
Last edited:
Actually, most of the time the concentration of power and wealth in industry has been caused by the Government. Either through direct grants of monopoly or through policies that followed from running a war.

Actually, the fundamental mechanism of wealth concentration has little to do with state intervention in the sense you are highlighting here.

If we imagine a society where everyone agrees to follow the rules of capitalist competition and abide by the results of free competition, we will get concentration of wealth and an eventual near-total monopoly.

The board game "Monopoly" illustrates the mechanism pretty clearly. Everyone starts out equal, and then a combination of chance and their own strategic choices governs what happens next. Given the element of chance in the game it is obvious that someone will sooner or later fluctuate to control somewhat more resources--both in specific properties more or less developed and in cash on hand. The one who has the most is in a better position to ride out a run of bad luck, and to maximize the "value" of the properties they own, which corresponds to ability to take money from other players. Meanwhile whoever fluctuates downward the most is more vulnerable to misfortune. As the game progresses, the losers lose more and more, become increasingly vulnerable to the next roll of the dice. After the disparity grows too great, it doesn't matter how brilliant the strategies of the losers are; they might slow their downward spiral but they can't stop it. Nor does it matter if the winner is a stolid, unimaginative plodder--the wealth they already control (at least that portion of it tied up in specific investments on the board) essentially guarantees they will reap more and more of the total wealth in the game, and pay out less and less as their competition weakens. Inevitably, one by one the other players get wiped out completely--and the leading player is most likely to acquire what resources the loser had, and be in a position to strengthen them into money-making propositions, and so multiply their already-decisive advantage further. The rate of elimination of competition accelerates, most players are rapidly pauperized and then wiped out while the winner owns nearly everything on the board when the last one goes under. Hence the name of the game.

If you have some counter-mechanism that tends to take wealth away from the richest players and allow their competitors to survive, the game of Monopoly never ends.

Now this basic mechanism of positive feedback favoring already-large private fortunes regardless of whether the legal and social structure is completely even-handed is clearly operational in the real-world capitalist economy. In the real world, there are lots of potentially countervailing factors. But in practice they don't generally countervail, at least not enough to reverse the dominant trend, which is concentration of wealth in a narrower class.

The sorts of state intervention you are looking at--direct creation of monopolies to either foster a new industry where there is none, or to consolidate resources to overcome a crisis such as a war--obviously tends to accelerate the basic process I have outlined. But equally obviously such interventions look like good ideas at the time! And they provide an obvious rationale for people who weren't favored by the special monopoly to challenge the eventual commanding positions of the ones favored and petition for redress. Wealth concentration that does not arise from such special intervention appears to be perfectly legitimate and immune to challenge on the other hand.

You seem to be saying that if wealth concentration is sometimes the direct result of a direct state intervention, then all wealth concentration that does occur must be the result of more subtle, unnoticed instances of state favoritism--the hidden assumption being that the market tends to equalize wealth rather than concentrate it. I'm saying actually the basic nature of the market is to concentrate wealth, and that it is extra-market countervailing factors that tend to offset that trend as much as it ever is.

This is why New Dealism as a reform of capitalism has some potential. If markets are allowed to operate freely but when their results get out of line with what the democratic majority wants and they then feel entitled to intervene--to take some wealth from the rich and redistribute it, to make an evolving body of regulations to try to limit and counteract unfortunate trends, to see to it by intervention that the system works to bring some benefit to everyone--then, like a board game of Monopoly where due to sentiment or some agreement to some sort of bail-out mechanism the rich are always rescuing the poor, the game can go on forever.

The trouble with that is that wealth is political power, and ideology also matters a great deal. If we view the whole thing in aggressively Marxist terms for instance, what we have going on there is, the working people generate all the wealth and are more or less grudgingly allowed to have a share of it to survive on, while others control most of it. From a propertarian point of view, whoever owns wealth has merit by definition and any and all interventions to favor others are unjust and should be stopped immediately.
 
Actually, the fundamental mechanism of wealth concentration has little to do with state intervention in the sense you are highlighting here.

If we imagine a society where everyone agrees to follow the rules of capitalist competition and abide by the results of free competition, we will get concentration of wealth and an eventual near-total monopoly.

There is a fundamental problem with your analysis here. The Monopoly game analogy only holds for markets where the barriers to entry are so high as to effectively close the market to new entrants. Most of these barriers, the high credentialing, the expensive licenses, and even more expensive mandated equipment for "safety" reasons, are from the Government.

If anyone could go into business as a baker using their home oven, there would be much more competition in the baking industry, more people would have secure self-employment, and less people would be dependent upon wage labor, which would give the rest a leg up in the labor market.

Your argument that wealth has an inevitable tendency to concentration of industry, only holds if there are high barriers to entry. But most barriers to entry come from government intervention in the form of patents, copyright, political appropriation of land, zoning laws, "safety standards", high mandated credentials, and suchlike. Where there are natural barriers to entry, they are almost never so bad as the artificial barriers.



While I am against redistribution, taxation is itself redistribution, so there's no excuse not to redistribute from the rich to the poor when you're already redistributing from everyone to the bureaucrats. Also, while there is a tendency to concentrate behind high barriers to entry where competition is zero sum, most of the big monopolies and oligopolies happened because of specific and obvious government intervention in the form of grants of monopoly and war policies.
 
Last edited:

elder.wyrm

Banned
Actually, the fundamental mechanism of wealth concentration has little to do with state intervention in the sense you are highlighting here.

If we imagine a society where everyone agrees to follow the rules of capitalist competition and abide by the results of free competition, we will get concentration of wealth and an eventual near-total monopoly.

This is true, perhaps, in Marxist theory, but not so much in real, observable history. It took the wealthy establishing for themselves real, tangible advantages and privileges in law in order for true concentration of wealth to begin to take hold. Without the close, personal relationship between states and their early financiers, there's no actual reason wealth needs to stay concentrated.

EDIT: And yeah, as to the actual subject of the topic at hand, the industrial nations without a feudal past often had competition friendly anarcho-socialists as the main representatives of the left-wing in their politics. State socialism had virtually no support in the US, for instance, until the New Deal.
 
Self-Management in Yugoslavia a brief overview (after 1900 solution)

The aim of the Yugoslav shift from Stalinist economics was to redefine the party as a source of ideological guidance, eliminating its political power over the economy. This would follow the true spirit of Marxism by giving the people control over their economic destiny. "The factories to the workers" was the slogan of the decade. The architect behind this ideologie was Edvard Kardelj

*snip*

POD?
The trick is to keep a strong democratic federal state too avoid a catastrophic breakup, the loss of a strong domestic market and the splintering into small walled of regions (there were inner tariffs in OTL) etc but on the other side there a more efficient hence market economic system has to be implemented to keep the economy from collapsing.
The best way to achieve both would be your proposed socialist worker-controlled pro-competition market economy with a strong federal parliament quenching dangerous separatist movements. There were many competing fractions and an very open debate so it shouldn’t be to unlikely that one of the parties (one of the more liberal fractions) is coming up with this plan and succeeding


(further information on http://www.country-data.com/frd/cs/yutoc.html#yu0037 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edvard_Kardelj)


Something like allowing self-managed enterprises to freely form and compete? This seems a viable answer to the challenge.

Edit: Unfortunately I don't know much about Yugoslavia.
 
Last edited:

Typo

Banned
There is a fundamental problem with your analysis here. The Monopoly game analogy only holds for markets where the barriers to entry are so high as to effectively close the market to new entrants. Most of these barriers, the high credentialing, the expensive licenses, and even more expensive mandated equipment for "safety" reasons, are from the Government.

If anyone could go into business as a baker using their home oven, there would be much more competition in the baking industry, more people would have secure self-employment, and less people would be dependent upon wage labor, which would give the rest a leg up in the labor market.
This is the same shitty libertarian free market meme that gets brought up every single time this debate occurs.

The answer is good luck overcoming the economy of scale which will effectively allow bigger competitions to price you out of the market.
 
This is the same libertarian free market meme that gets brought up every single time this debate occurs.

The answer is good luck overcoming the economy of scale which will effectively allow bigger competitions to price you out of the market.

Yep, it also fails to take into account the business cycle. Barriers to entry might be low in times of growth when there is plenty for everyone but when there is a downturn it's going to disproportionally affect the smallest and newest firms. They have the smallest rainy day funds, they are more highly leveraged (in the bakery example, they haven't paid off the industrial sized mixer yet). That distress also allows the strongest firms to buy up their competition when prices are low and come out of the negative portion of the cycle with even greater market share.
 

Typo

Banned
Yep, it also fails to take into account the business cycle. Barriers to entry might be low in times of growth when there is plenty for everyone but when there is a downturn it's going to disproportionally affect the smallest and newest firms. They have the smallest rainy day funds, they are more highly leveraged (in the bakery example, they haven't paid off the industrial sized mixer yet). That distress also allows the strongest firms to buy up their competition when prices are low and come out of the negative portion of the cycle with even greater market share.
And if you ever find some miracle way to compete with larger competition, they will sell at a loss until you get priced out!
 
Actually, most of the time the concentration of power and wealth in industry has been caused by the Government. Either through direct grants of monopoly or through policies that followed from running a war.

There is a lot of truth in this, but we would have concentration (maybe not monopolies but concentration) even without goverment intervention.
People that work harder and are more gifted than the average selfemployed tend to become small businessmen with 2-5 employees.
If they have leadership ability / can delegate responsibility they might create middle sized enterprises. Throw in some luck and you have a larger enterprise (1000+ employes).

Also there are "natural monopolies" like phone and railway networks you selldom see to of them operationg in the same area.

And there is the fact that to produce something like cars you have to invest a lot of money.
 
This is the same shitty libertarian free market meme that gets brought up every single time this debate occurs.

The answer is good luck overcoming the economy of scale which will effectively allow bigger competitions to price you out of the market.

Economies of scale top out much, much quicker than you are implying here. Read up on Ralph Borsodi.

Yep, it also fails to take into account the business cycle. Barriers to entry might be low in times of growth when there is plenty for everyone but when there is a downturn it's going to disproportionally affect the smallest and newest firms. They have the smallest rainy day funds, they are more highly leveraged (in the bakery example, they haven't paid off the industrial sized mixer yet). That distress also allows the strongest firms to buy up their competition when prices are low and come out of the negative portion of the cycle with even greater market share.

An industrial mixer that they only have because the state forced them to buy it if they wanted to go into business at all. This is what I meant by artificial barriers to entry.

And if you ever find some miracle way to compete with larger competition, they will sell at a loss until you get priced out!

Which just makes them more vulnerable to further competition later on.
 

Typo

Banned
Economies of scale top out much, much quicker than you are implying here. Read up on Ralph Borsodi.
Dude, you can't just argue by pointing at a book and assert that it will somehow prove your point, either explain or concede.
Which just makes them more vulnerable to further competition later on.
That's the thing, the situation when you gets to the point where they fought economy of scale to get to that level competition with a huge firm is already rare. You are assuming they can't make up their losses once you are gone.
An industrial mixer that they only have because the state forced them to buy it if they wanted to go into business at all. This is what I meant by artificial barriers to entry.
Do you have a source for this? Also do you like understand the what the economic of scale is and how an industrial mixer is related to it?
 
Last edited:
Top