Catholic Schools of Thought

[Aussey]

What if instead of the Reformation, the Roman Catholic Church peaceful divided, not split, into, say, five or six "schools of thought," based on prayer and daily life.
Eventually, this would lead to a Solemn High Latin Mass on Sundays, but also vernacular Masses at other times. These schools of thought, I'm thinking, would be based off of the main Orders of the Roman Catholic Church- I'm thinking:in

Benedictine
Franciscan
Dominican
Ignation
Carmelite

and maybe one that comes after.
maybe, Luther founds an order preaching in the vernacular and
promoting "Glorification of God through Simple Means"

Parishes and maybe whole diocese would be affiliated with these schools- but all under the spiritual leadership of the Holy See, and that regardless of their lifestyle and personal prayer, they all worship together in Latin on Sundays across the world.

I dunno, I just did a speech on Catholic Spirituality and it got me thinking about this. Instead of such a fragmented "Christianity," we would see, ]atleast in the Western world one religion, with different "schools of thought."

Ideas? Comments? Critiques?

 

[Nicomacheus]

If there are only five schools of thought and if a parish affiliates with one, then it seems like the unity of the Catholic church would be compromised to the point that it might not appear to be a single faith.

If you truly mean to eliminate the great number of Christian denominations, then it seems like there would need to be a great many more schools of thought.

This surely wouldn't stop the Reformation that we know: many of the Luther's challenges to the Church stem from the corrupt Church governance (Pope's with offspring, indulgences, etc) of the preceeding centuries. As long the Church remained a quasi-political body, which it was until at least 1648 (if not continues to be: Vatican City), then these different schools of thought may also disagree on how to run the Church. How would the schools be reconciled with the central authority?

Perhaps it might be possible if the POD is early enough: if the early church councils do not set about to maintain an orthodoxy. Again the unity of the resultant faith may be suspect.

 

[Aussey]

Schools of thought are A LOT more different than denominations...
These orders exist in Catholicism to this day, and in the past, ran whole countries: The Franciscans ran New Mexico, the Dominicans ran Mexico...The Ignations/Jesuits have had much influence, the Carmelites in Africa and Asia...

...All that would need to happen is greater influence on the Catholic Laity and community by the Holy Orders...Maybe in this kind of world, by the 21st century, virtually all parishes are part of a monastery, or affiliated with one.

These schools wouldnt hold any opposing opinions, they would all work well with each other, it would just be how they go about living their spiritual lives. Today Carmelite and Dominican monks are equally Catholic- how they go about worshipping aside from Sunday Mass, is different though. How they go about "spiritually:" Carmelites are more or less Christian Mystics, and use solitude and fasting and abstinence in hope for a "spiritual ecstasy;" whereas Dominicans search for "Divine Truth," and place a HUGE emphasis on education...

I'm thinking, I dont know. Does this make any sense?! Haha, like it makes a lot of sense in my mind, but I dont know if its making any when I type...

 

[carlton_bach]

There is no administrative odr theological reason why this should not be possible, provided the reformers do not radically alter their views. 'sola fide, sola gratia' is a dealbreaker, buit a stronger emphasis on redemption through grace by faith would not have to be. The provblem IMO is the historical position of the Catholic church at this point. The popes of the Renaissance are intellectually the heirs of the legalist 'reform papacy' of the high middle ages. The fundamental principle they based their position on was the two-sword theology, the concept of overlordship granted by Christ to his church and its head. A modern pope (and quite possibly a pre-Cluniac one) would have addressed the concerns of the reformers and debated theological points in an effort to reconcile them, but that's not how the church between 1100 and 1600 worked. If you read the pronouncements not only of the popes, but also of some leading theologians of dissent management (such as Bernardo Gui, Konrad von Merseburg or Ignatius of Loyola), you will find that obedience is all but elevated to a cardinal virtue. There is no room for 'schools of thought' in this setup, not because the theology does not allow for it (the skirts of the Mother Church are capacious indeed, especially outside of Europe), but because the leadership had an inbuilt kill reflex in the face of dissent.

 

[matt the viking]

Here's a thought: What if our POD is before the "re-communion" period of the great Western Churches (Celtic, Gallic, Andalusian, West Slavic, Baltic, and Nordic) c600-800a.d.? Could the Holy See absorb the regional Churches as INTACT Particular Churches, along the lines of the Eastern Rites in OTL? That would be SOOOOO cool! Than you would have the ability for them to do pretty much whatever they want, as long as they don't challenge Doctrine. Also, maybe the Great Schism, as well as the Reformation, never takes place.
The OTL "Orthodox" churches only have to pay nominal allegiance to the Supreme Pontiff in TTL, while also doing pretty much whatever they want.
This would solve (maybe) the "monolithic, unmovable, hyper rigid, Big Bad Catholic Church" thing, which is actually most of my non-Catholic friends biggest reason that they give for not joining!
With multi Churches, Co-existing with different practices, but all united under one Pope, the Church could be as flexible as could be imagined!

 

[Analytical Engine]

Here's a thought: What if our POD is before the "re-communion" period of the great Western Churches (Celtic, Gallic, Andalusian, West Slavic, Baltic, and Nordic) c600-800a.d.? Could the Holy See absorb the regional Churches as INTACT Particular Churches, along the lines of the Eastern Rites in OTL? That would be SOOOOO cool! Than you would have the ability for them to do pretty much whatever they want, as long as they don't challenge Doctrine. Also, maybe the Great Schism, as well as the Reformation, never takes place.
The OTL "Orthodox" churches only have to pay nominal allegiance to the Supreme Pontiff in TTL, while also doing pretty much whatever they want.

Wow!

Orthadox Church a-go-go!

 

[Philip]

Here's a thought: What if our POD is before the "re-communion" period of the great Western Churches (Celtic, Gallic, Andalusian, West Slavic, Baltic, and Nordic) c600-800a.d.? Could the Holy See absorb the regional Churches as INTACT Particular Churches, along the lines of the Eastern Rites in OTL?

This would require a significant shift in Rome's political policy.

That would be SOOOOO cool!

If you say so.

Than you would have the ability for them to do pretty much whatever they want, as long as they don't challenge Doctrine.

This would require another major shift in Rome's policies.

Also, maybe the Great Schism, as well as the Reformation, never takes place.

While it might prevent the Reformation (at least as we know it), the split between East and West was already becoming visible by AD 600. What you propose will not stop it.

The OTL "Orthodox" churches only have to pay nominal allegiance to the Supreme Pontiff in TTL, while also doing pretty much whatever they want.

Does that include the rejecting Roman dogma and doctrine such as the Filioque, the Analogy of Being, and (latter) PSA? If so, it does not seem to mesh with what you said at the beginning of your post. If not, the East will is not likely to go along.

With multi Churches, Co-existing with different practices, but all united under one Pope, the Church could be as flexible as could be imagined!

If you say so.

 

[carlton_bach]

Here's a thought: What if our POD is before the "re-communion" period of the great Western Churches (Celtic, Gallic, Andalusian, West Slavic, Baltic, and Nordic) c600-800a.d.? Could the Holy See absorb the regional Churches as INTACT Particular Churches, along the lines of the Eastern Rites in OTL? That would be SOOOOO cool! Than you would have the ability for them to do pretty much whatever they want, as long as they don't challenge Doctrine. Also, maybe the Great Schism, as well as the Reformation, never takes place.
The OTL "Orthodox" churches only have to pay nominal allegiance to the Supreme Pontiff in TTL, while also doing pretty much whatever they want.
This would solve (maybe) the "monolithic, unmovable, hyper rigid, Big Bad Catholic Church" thing, which is actually most of my non-Catholic friends biggest reason that they give for not joining!
With multi Churches, Co-existing with different practices, but all united under one Pope, the Church could be as flexible as could be imagined!

To make this work, you have to alter the nature of the papacy. Have Gregory the Great die of the pestilence he is credited with praying away, maybe. If you have a Roman pontiff without a claim to absolute supremacy over all others, he will find it much easier to get along with the orthodox patriarchs - and ditto the 'heretic' churches. Note, though, that there wasn't anything like the schism between East and West with those. In Western Europe we are rather looking at a process of gradual establishment of papal oversight and power.

Doctrinal differences would still matter, but differences in practice and habit could more easily be accommodated if the Roman centre does not insist on its authoprity in all things, and who knows - maybe the Roman church can even remain in communion with its mother churches if Rome finds it easier to listen to others?

 

[matt the viking]

actually, the Pope had a long standing tradition of being the "Patriarch of Patriarchs", if the Churches of the West kept there Primates, instead of devolving to purely local control, they Could have been absorbed whole, instead of peacemeal!