Carlos El Hechizado Dies During the Franco-Dutch War

Othniel

Charles II of Spain's health was always questionable, and Europe, especially Spain and Austria, were waiting for the man to die. Intrestingly this is an era of French expansion and according to wikipedia they attempted to seduce Austria before this with a deal with rather large parts of the Spainsh Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Grand_Alliance
After an easy victory against Spanish forces, Louis decided to sue for peace after the Dutch Republic, England and Sweden formed the Triple Alliance in opposition. The subsequent peace of Aix-la-Chapelle rewarded Louis with minor gains, most notably of which was Lille, but the pressure from the Triple Alliance was not the only reason Louis accepted such easy terms. Earlier in January 1668, Louis had negotiated a secret partition treaty with the Austrian Habsburgs to divide up the substantial Spanish empire should the infirm Charles II die. The Holy Roman Emperor, Leopold I (or his children) would inherit the Spanish throne, the American empire, Milan and ports on the Tuscan coast; whereas Louis would inherit Spanish Navarre, the Spanish Netherlands, Franche-Comté, Naples, Sicily, and the Philippines. Although there was no formal signing between Louis and Leopold, the Spanish themselves tacitly accepted the partition to prevent any immediate major annexations.[9] However, Charles II did not die, and his survival through childhood made the succession issue far less immediate.
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That was following the War of Devolution (1667-1668) which had gained France land from Spain due to Spain not paying his Queen's dowery to France.. These circumstances lead into the Franco-Dutch War which in turn lead into the War of the Grand Alliance. However with Charles II dead Austria and France's partition plan comes into play...and the world changes dramatically...

Sweden, England and the Dutch would assuredly not be happy with these circumstances...

(Map of the French Partition Plan to be made)
 

Iñaki

Mariana de Austria was the regent of Spain until 1675 and in great part the authentic ruler of Spain during the time of Charles II because her son Charles was as we know incapable in almost all the matters of govern.

So, I suppose this plan is made with the support of Mariana de Austria or the Austrian Habsburgs made this plan without consulting her?, I said this because if it is made with consulting Spain, the spanish could be that considered that his austrian brothers had made some kind of treason against them and decided to resist the implementation of such plan.
 

Othniel

Ahem...

the Spanish themselves tacitly accepted the partition to prevent any immediate major annexations.
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This statement is repeated from above. The situtaion I'm calling for is that he dies between 1672 and 1678.
 

Iñaki

You are right, these things happen when you read or make things at night and you are mid sleep:D

Hmm, it would be an interesting TL.
 

Othniel

King Louis XIV (you should know what country thats for as no other seemed to produce so many Louises) is in a mental picture of mine. In this mental picture Louis is looking at a picture of Charles II and yelling "Just die damnit!"

The French had set themselves to capitalize on the decline of Spain, and the realtive weakening of the rest of Europe so well after 1648 that you could chose any POD in the late 17th century to the mid-18th century and you would have Frenchwank given their strength. Heck they could grind Europe to a standstill on their own. Everything for France was barely wrong...

Be certainly intresting to write seeing as they have numerous sources for this era. It could definately be researched in detail, but not a painful or overwhealming amount... its easy to judge how they'd react given failure or victory, and the social-poltical events are very easy to track.
 

Tocomocho

French Philippines, that sounds pretty strange. :eek: I expect quite wars for the archipielago between France, Britain and perhaps the Netherlands, too.
 

Othniel

Right so what do I have to fix on this map. (Its of 1700 with the partition fixes on there so I'll have to retrograde War of Grand Alliance type stuff.)

Spainshpartition.PNG
 

Nicole

Yay, Austrian Americas...

I think there's a good chance this could provoke a war, though, simply because of the French gains- wasn't a lot of British foreign policy in this period based around containing France?
 

Othniel

Imajin said:
Yay, Austrian Americas...

I think there's a good chance this could provoke a war, though, simply because of the French gains- wasn't a lot of British foreign policy in this period based around containing France?
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Stuarts are still in play here Imajin. Tell me what you know of their policies up to the glorious revolution and Monmouth's rebellion.
 

Nicole

Othniel said:
Techincally yes, and will probably continue to be adminstered as Spainsh...
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Well, they were already Hapsburg Americas, just now Austrian Hapsburgs rather than Spanish Hapsburgs... Though you're right that it's almost certain that they'll continue being administrated by the Spanish. Though, it'd be interesting to see if the Enlightened monarchs of the line (if they're not butterflied away totally) would do with the Americas...
 

Iñaki

Some comments about French Philippines

Logistically it seems necessary for the french to have some kind of possesion between Europe and Philippines as intermediate base for their ships arriving to Philippines: in OTL they founded Fort Dauphin in 1647 in the south of Madagascar and abandoned it in 1674 for concentrate their efforts in Reunion (french possesion from 1638) because the need to make an important military effort to dominate Madagacar (divided between different kingdoms with the belicuous Hovas dominating the center of the island), in TTL because Philippines is now french and if the POD is before 1674 the french could decide to not abandon Fort Dauphin and try to make the effort to dominate at least the southern half of the island (in 1686 in OTL Franced declared all it dependency of France naturally it was a claim only of words, surely expecting the french a future opportunity to make reality this claim, because all the wars against England and diverses coalitions France would not get the definitive dominion of the island until 1895), this with the possesion of Reunion could secure some base in the Indian Ocean combined with an effort of strengthen the french territories in India and could be the possesion of some island in Indonesia, all this would make of the French Philippines a far less logistical nightmare for France.

The possesion of the Philippines by the french and if this dominion endures long in the time could also mean a sooner effort to intervene in the internal matters of the states of Southern Asia like Vietnam, in OTL from 1786 France begin to involve in the internal matters of Vietnam with the french help represented by the religious Pigneau de Behaine to the vietnam prince Gia Long, in TTL the french presence in Philippines would mean a possible intervention sooner in the time.
 

Othniel

Imajin said:
Well, they were already Hapsburg Americas, just now Austrian Hapsburgs rather than Spanish Hapsburgs... Though you're right that it's almost certain that they'll continue being administrated by the Spanish. Though, it'd be interesting to see if the Enlightened monarchs of the line (if they're not butterflied away totally) would do with the Americas...
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I can't see the reunion of Charles V's land staying around very long, after all Leopold I had multiple sons... Second Branch of Spainsh Habsburgs sems possible. Austria's rule could easily stir up resentment between the Spainsh Kingdoms as welll...
 

Nicole

Othniel said:
I can't see the reunion of Charles V's land staying around very long, after all Leopold I had multiple sons... Second Branch of Spainsh Habsburgs sems possible.
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Both Joseph and Charles (Leopold's sons) became Emperors, though. So even if Leopold I splits the inheritance, it could just come back together once Joseph I dies. And the Spanish kingdoms had no prohibition against female monarchs, so the Pragmatic Sanction wouldn't be that much of a problem for Spain. Maybe the line could split after Maria Theresa, but I don't think that fits with her ideas for centralizing. Of course, France could try something if Prussia starts a War of Austrian Succession...

Othniel said:
Austria's rule could easily stir up resentment between the Spainsh Kingdoms as welll...
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Possibly... I could actually see Madrid as becoming the center of the Hapsburg Empire- I believe the Madrid court was seen as superior to the court of Vienna, and Austrian emperors in this era (especially Leopold I and Charles VI) borrowed a lot of trappings from Madrid.
 

Othniel

Imajin said:
Both Joseph and Charles (Leopold's sons) became Emperors, though. So even if Leopold I splits the inheritance, it could just come back together once Joseph I dies. And the Spanish kingdoms had no prohibition against female monarchs, so the Pragmatic Sanction wouldn't be that much of a problem for Spain. Maybe the line could split after Maria Theresa, but I don't think that fits with her ideas for centralizing. Of course, France could try something if Prussia starts a War of Austrian Succession...
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Joseph I isn't garenteed to die though, and neither is senior female line of the Habsburgs. Bavaria is looking to gain sigfigant prestige in this era.
Possibly... I could actually see Madrid as becoming the center of the Hapsburg Empire- I believe the Madrid court was seen as superior to the court of Vienna, and Austrian emperors in this era (especially Leopold I and Charles VI) borrowed a lot of trappings from Madrid.
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I think they'll make the discussion Charles V made when he abdicated then... Both those kingdoms are big, and Austria especially at this point can afford to have its focus split between the internal troubles of Spain, the Ottomans, the American Colonies, and the rivalry with France. This would look like a recipe for decentralization in the Habsburg Kingdoms.
 

Othniel

Iñaki said:
Some comments about French Philippines

Logistically it seems necessary for the french to have some kind of possesion between Europe and Philippines as intermediate base for their ships arriving to Philippines: in OTL they founded Fort Dauphin in 1647 in the south of Madagascar and abandoned it in 1674 for concentrate their efforts in Reunion (french possesion from 1638) because the need to make an important military effort to dominate Madagacar (divided between different kingdoms with the belicuous Hovas dominating the center of the island), in TTL because Philippines is now french and if the POD is before 1674 the french could decide to not abandon Fort Dauphin and try to make the effort to dominate at least the southern half of the island (in 1686 in OTL Franced declared all it dependency of France naturally it was a claim only of words, surely expecting the french a future opportunity to make reality this claim, because all the wars against England and diverses coalitions France would not get the definitive dominion of the island until 1895), this with the possesion of Reunion could secure some base in the Indian Ocean combined with an effort of strengthen the french territories in India and could be the possesion of some island in Indonesia, all this would make of the French Philippines a far less logistical nightmare for France.

The possesion of the Philippines by the french and if this dominion endures long in the time could also mean a sooner effort to intervene in the internal matters of the states of Southern Asia like Vietnam, in OTL from 1786 France begin to involve in the internal matters of Vietnam with the french help represented by the religious Pigneau de Behaine to the vietnam prince Gia Long, in TTL the french presence in Philippines would mean a possible intervention sooner in the time.
Click to expand...
The Franco-Dutch War takes place between 1672 and 1678. England was on the French side against the Dutch with England abandoning the war in 1674. IF Charles's Death takes place before 1674 then we'll get them keeping it, otherwise they might move back in with the death of Charles alone...
 

Othniel

Imajin said:
Yay, Austrian Americas...

I think there's a good chance this could provoke a war, though, simply because of the French gains- wasn't a lot of British foreign policy in this period based around containing France?
Click to expand...
Apartently the Staurts seem more concerned about the Dutch before the glorious revolution than the French during this era, acautly allieing with the French at this time.
 
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