Capetian England?

Othniel

Four Gothic Kings edited by Elizabeth Hallam said:
No Plantagent King came to the throne in more difficult circumstances then Henry II, son of King John. In 1216, he was just over nine years old. Louis, sone of Philip II, king of France, controlled the whole of Eastern London, including London, and was recognized as king by the majority of English barons. It seemed that the Plantagent dynasty was about to swept away by the Capetian.
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Four Gothic Kings gives credit for the Plantagenet's victory to William Marshall, earl of Pembroke, and to the Papal Legate Gaulo, who within a year had beaten Louis.

Lets say however Louis manges to keep the loyalty of the English Barons, and five years later becomes both the king of England, and king of France.

Short term results? Long term?
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
I'd like to see it. I've read that before and thought it was interesting WI-fodder. Note that I believe France had occupied the Isle of Wight at this point, so they were in a position to back up Louis' claim by force if he had initial successes.

(Also, Henry was not actually crowned with the crown because he was too young - they just put a gold bracelet on his head instead - so you could use that perhaps as part of a claim of illegitimacy, or just a footnote of interest).
 

Thermopylae

This sounds familiar... ;)

I'd like to see it done. It's one of those "you're not expecting it" TLs. Everyone expects that in an ATL, the King of England becomes the King of France. Oh contraire...
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Thermopylae said:
This sounds familiar... ;)

I'd like to see it done. It's one of those "you're not expecting it" TLs. Everyone expects that in an ATL, the King of England becomes the King of France. Oh contraire...
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To be honest I'm not sure if the end result would actually be much different to us winning the Hundred Years' War - most people reckon that the still-French-identified Normans would pretty soon shift their centre of power to France and just run England as an offshore colony anyway. It was only the ejection of the English from France in OTL that completed the royals' and nobles' shift in identification from French to English.
 

Thermopylae

Thande said:
To be honest I'm not sure if the end result would actually be much different to us winning the Hundred Years' War - most people reckon that the still-French-identified Normans would pretty soon shift their centre of power to France and just run England as an offshore colony anyway. It was only the ejection of the English from France in OTL that completed the royals' and nobles' shift in identification from French to English.
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Oh no doubt. But it would be amsusing just to read about it. One of those historical oddities that come out of left field... At least for me. :eek:
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Thermopylae said:
Oh no doubt. But it would be amsusing just to read about it. One of those historical oddities that come out of left field... At least for me. :eek:
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No no, same here, I agree.

It would be nice if Oth could come up with a new spin on this. Maybe France never integrates to the same degree and the Capetian empire is more England-based? What would happen to Normandy in this TL?
 

Othniel

Thermopylae said:
I'd like to see it done. It's one of those "you're not expecting it" TLs. Everyone expects that in an ATL, the King of England becomes the King of France. Oh contraire...
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Well thats only because the English had so many chances, and the French had what? Two?
 

Othniel

Thande said:
To be honest I'm not sure if the end result would actually be much different to us winning the Hundred Years' War - most people reckon that the still-French-identified Normans would pretty soon shift their centre of power to France and just run England as an offshore colony anyway. It was only the ejection of the English from France in OTL that completed the royals' and nobles' shift in identification from French to English.
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No doubt, as the same thing happened when a Scotish King took over England. Still how tight or lose that rule is depends on how it came to be...as well as events early in its shaping.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Othniel said:
No doubt, as the same thing happened when a Scotish King took over England. Still how tight or lose that rule is depends on how it came to be...as well as events early in its shaping.
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Well the Stuarts, as we know, messed up seriously in England. I don't personally know about how well the Capets ruled France in OTL - would their style of rule transfer easily to England or not?
 

Othniel

Thande said:
Well the Stuarts, as we know, messed up seriously in England. I don't personally know about how well the Capets ruled France in OTL - would their style of rule transfer easily to England or not?
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I'm not sure. The English would be dealling with the famed Sanit Louis (IX) here early on if the crowns stay under one rule. (1226 onward) Prehaps a dynasty split would occur early on... thus making it a short period of instrest for Alternate Hisotry in that timeline were the dynasties were united for only a short time.
 

Othniel

Thande said:
No no, same here, I agree.

It would be nice if Oth could come up with a new spin on this. Maybe France never integrates to the same degree and the Capetian empire is more England-based? What would happen to Normandy in this TL?
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Normandy had been taken by France at that time already, and had little chance of getting it back in the short term.

To be honest this looks like one man ruling two different Kingdoms, and might treat it as such. The kingdoms either cojoin like what happened with Leon and Castile, sperate like the Empire and France did at Verdun, or fall apart, like Cnut the Great's kingdoms did...

Lets speculate though that they fall to Saint Louis as sperate kingdoms. Lets speculate he does an alright job, and it falls to son, his son does an alright job, but the rule gets a bit shaky. Finally three generation of England under the Capets, and the Englsih rebell. This rebellion coincides with anouther one in France, prehaps the Cathars or maybe some Duke or Count closer to Paris. England breaks away, prehaps under a viceroy, or a German Prince they offered the crown to...

England ends up indepedant, but they've had a complately different expirence along the way. France too is changed due to the shift in the king's focus. English identity has changed. Meanwhile the butterflies have flapped their wings, and things on a macro-scale have started to happen for a long term effect.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Othniel said:
Normandy had been taken by France at that time already, and had little chance of getting it back in the short term.

To be honest this looks like one man ruling two different Kingdoms, and might treat it as such. The kingdoms either cojoin like what happened with Leon and Castile, sperate like the Empire and France did at Verdun, or fall apart, like Cnut the Great's kingdoms did...

Lets speculate though that they fall to Saint Louis as sperate kingdoms. Lets speculate he does an alright job, and it falls to son, his son does an alright job, but the rule gets a bit shaky. Finally three generation of England under the Capets, and the Englsih rebell. This rebellion coincides with anouther one in France, prehaps the Cathars or maybe some Duke or Count closer to Paris. England breaks away, prehaps under a viceroy, or a German Prince they offered the crown to...

England ends up indepedant, but they've had a complately different expirence along the way. France too is changed due to the shift in the king's focus. English identity has changed. Meanwhile the butterflies have flapped their wings, and things on a macro-scale have started to happen for a long term effect.
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OK, sounds good, run with it! :)

I like the idea of the English shoving a German on the throne - it might be connected with a desire to turn their back on French influence...
 

Othniel

Thande said:
OK, sounds good, run with it! :)
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But its so close to Christmas and by the time I have time School will start back up again...hmm...
I like the idea of the English shoving a German on the throne - it might be connected with a desire to turn their back on French influence...
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Aye, it might indeed. Not nessacarly someone legitmate either... then again German king is so OTL.... maybe a son to a Duke of Burgundy... that could work...

If this happened according to OTL, in terms of France Kings, it would happen under Philippe IV le Bel(Philip IV the fair). Philip the Seventh was one those royal kings, the kind that liked more power to the monarchy. With England under his command its easy to manage how you might get anouther Baron's revolt. He arrested Jews, levied taxes on the clergy and forced the Pope to make it so Church property could not become French property. He arrested many of the Knights Templar... He was defeated once by a small army from Flanders who was in rebellio, but came back down on them like a hammer when he defeated them, and even more so at the peace table. Gentlemen, we have the template for the king we wish the English to rebell against. The timetable of his life puts the rebellion in the early 1300s.

Though his son was weaker.. and in control of Navarre, and had an heir problem. Note Navarre and England both are without Salic law, so it is reasonable to belief they could pass to female members of the Capets which would be an instresting twist. It would be Aussey-like of me to include this, but what the heck, any secession that would cause an English-Navarre line of the House of Capet would be a good historical oddity to work with. IT also would put England in Henry IVth's place ;)
 

Don_Giorgio

Well England could have a Capetian dynasty if the rebellion against John Lackland was succesful and the Dauphin assumed the throne of England as Louis I.
 

Othniel

Don_Giorgio said:
Well England could have a Capetian dynasty if the rebellion against John Lackland was succesful and the Dauphin assumed the throne of England as Louis I.
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Someone idn't read the opening post. Anyway thats OTL, as the rebellion was sucessful, and Louis did claim the throne, only to have it stripped away by a nine-year old within a year.:D

We're speculating what would happen if a little kid and a man over seventy didn't through Louis back across the chanell.
 

Othniel

Othniel said:
Aye, it might indeed. Not nessacarly someone legitmate either... then again German king is so OTL.... maybe a son to a Duke of Burgundy... that could work...

If this happened according to OTL, in terms of France Kings, it would happen under Philippe IV le Bel(Philip IV the fair). Philip the Seventh was one those royal kings, the kind that liked more power to the monarchy. With England under his command its easy to manage how you might get anouther Baron's revolt. He arrested Jews, levied taxes on the clergy and forced the Pope to make it so Church property could not become French property. He arrested many of the Knights Templar... He was defeated once by a small army from Flanders who was in rebellio, but came back down on them like a hammer when he defeated them, and even more so at the peace table. Gentlemen, we have the template for the king we wish the English to rebell against. The timetable of his life puts the rebellion in the early 1300s.

Though his son was weaker.. and in control of Navarre, and had an heir problem. Note Navarre and England both are without Salic law, so it is reasonable to belief they could pass to female members of the Capets which would be an instresting twist. It would be Aussey-like of me to include this, but what the heck, any secession that would cause an English-Navarre line of the House of Capet would be a good historical oddity to work with. IT also would put England in Henry IVth's place ;)
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Hmm.. possiblitis...

The Capetians often times had to focus on internal problems, but when they didn't they went on Crusades. They did one in Aragorn, one in Tunis, one against the Cathars, etc.

They persued to control the Catholic Church many a time. However the expansion of the French state didn't happen under them (in terms of territory)... They expanded within France. They expanded the power of the royalty in particular, often times undermining counts and dukes, adding their lands to the Royal Domain. They centralised the French state, and would probably do the same thing in England if they didn't understand how to prevent the Barons from rebelling.

Louis I of England probably has a shakey rule, but will have a vague understanding of what put him in power. Louis II, Saint Louis, will focus outward, towards the Mediterrain. Local Power among barons and other nobels probably grows during this time.
 
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