Bigger Articles Of Confederation

[wkwillis]

The colonies signed the Articles of Confederation after the ARW. Consider what would have happened if Benedict Arnold had been more successfull in his attack on Canada.
GA, SC, NC, VA, MD, and DE are strong slave states. PA, NJ, NY are weak slave states, CT, MA, RI, VT, and NH are not significantly slave states from a cultural point of view.
Now add NS, NB, QB, and ON. Assume PEI and Newfoundland are retained by the British.
Would the states still be able to arrange a compromise for a constitution? Or would the articles continue in force?
Would there still be a War of 1812 without a Canadian border, or would it come faster without a Canadian hostage?
Would the American navy be bigger because of the added Canadian ships and shipyards?
Would there still be conflict between America and Britain without the irritation of the Ohio territory disputes.
Does New York become dominant in the American economy if the Eire canal is replaced by improvements to the St. Lawrence and the Lake Champlain canal to the St. Lawrence?

 

[Nicole]

I don't think there would be a QB or ON- There'd be a CA, Canada was mostly French (no United Empire Loyalists) and not divided yet.

 

[Archangel Michael]

And Nova Scotia and New Brunswick were one colony until a few years after the ARW.

 

[Othniel]

I don't think there would be a QB or ON- There'd be a CA, Canada was mostly French (no United Empire Loyalists) and not divided yet.

I think Upper Canada might be added in with the Northwest Territories myself.. probably the follows Kentucky, Vermont, and Ohio into the union...

 

[Nicole]

I think Upper Canada might be added in with the Northwest Territories myself.. probably the follows Kentucky, Vermont, and Ohio into the union...

Possibly, perhaps the other states force Canada (probably the name of the French-Canadian state) to drop it when they cede their western land claims. I wonder what it would be called?

 

[Othniel]

Possibly, perhaps the other states force Canada (probably the name of the French-Canadian state) to drop it when they cede their western land claims. I wonder what it would be called?

Well its between Lake Huron, Lake Erie, and Lake Ontario. Likely it would be all land between Lake Superior and Lake Ontario. Naming it Huron, or possibly Erie would be more likely than Ontario, seeing that most of that would probably be French Canadian.

 

[Wendell]

Make the State of Canada north of the Ottawa River. The land to its south that is between the lakes could be called Ottawa, Toronto, Huron, or Ontario. There's also Fredonia, Gloriana...Maybe Indians are encouraged to congregate there and form a state?

 

[Othniel]

Here's my take on what it might look like cartographically.

EDIT; Simply showing Loiusanna as sperate, it could be either Spainsh, French, or American at this point, but I'd prefer to see it as French as of 1802..

 

[Nicole]

Why wouldn't they stick with Nova Scotia? We stuck with New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey, and other Britain-derived names OTL.

 

[Othniel]

Why wouldn't they stick with Nova Scotia? We stuck with New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey, and other Britain-derived names OTL.

I guese it would. But I like hopw Acadia looked.

 

[kingdobbs]

Why wouldn't they stick with Nova Scotia? We stuck with New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey, and other Britain-derived names OTL.

Perhaps, though, should OTL New Brunswick be calved off into a separate state, it may take the name "Acadia" anyway. I doubt that the US would (despite Virginia, Maryland, Georgia and the Carolinas) continue naming states after the British crown, and if it should become a state, I can't think of a much better name for it.

Then again, though, in this scenario, it might even be divided between Maine and Nova Scotia and never really become separated.

 

[fortyseven]

Would the exiled Acadians be allowed to go back?

 

[Othniel]

Again trying to capture the spirit of this discussion...prehaps after an American entry into the Napoleonic wars, or a purchase of Louisanna.

 

[Othniel]

This is all of corse assuming the US didn't discentagrate soon after or just remain a millitary alliance between states.

Because of butterflies I'm going to assume that both Louisanna and Orleans territories are under self-goverment, as oppossed to Jefferson's ruling that they should be under millitary rule until they had enough population. Such as there is a Catholic-Francophone party along with a Federalist and Democrat-Republican party, as well as the other traditionally small parties. I'm not sure that Florida wouldn't remain a British possesion in this case, or if it did turn Spainsh that there wouldn't be an amount of tension between them. Slave population is probably being maintained at Pre-Revolutionary levels in Canada and Nova Scotia, as well as the more Northern Territories..

 

[Othniel]

As of 1810 there are only two techincal free states in the USA. Mass (1783) and Vermont(1777), though Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Conn, Rhode Island, New York, and New Jeresy had all started gradadule emancipation programs. The War of 1812 was a major push for abolishment of slavery, isn't present here, but the Midwest is currently blocking it from being spread. Effectively our free and slave states at this point are;

Free States;
New Jersey, Ohio,Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Mass., NY, Vermont, New Hampshire, Canada, Nova Scotia (10)

Slave States;
Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia(8)

In the next three years Louisanna (Orleans territory) will join in on the slave side. Also probably a faster push for the entry of Alabama and Mississippi. The admission of Indianna territory, and our Illinious will likely also take place. (maybe Eastern Huron as well.. turning the west into Michigan...)

 

[Wendell]

I might have done some of the borders differently, but why not make both NS AND Acadia states eventually?

 

[eschaton]

New Brunswick only developed a seperate identity due to the loyalists settling in the southern area. I see no reason why it would develop into a seperate area from Novia Scotia otherwise. The only calving of states that happened in OTL was Maine from Massachusetts and Virginia from West Virginia. Maybe when Maine is split off in 1820 OTL's New Brunswick is included.

As to your map Othniel, I only have a few issues with the boders of Canada and Huron Territory.

1. the U.S. wouldn't have any outlets on the Hudson Bay. This area was all but uninhabited and owned by the Hudson's Bay Company seperately from the British crown at the time. The States may eventually buy some land from the Hudson's Bay Company of course, but I wouldn't expect it yet.

2. Canada should extend further up the northern bank of the St. Lawrence bay and include that island (all fairly densely populated Francophone areas). On the other hand, you shouldn't have extended the border of Canada southward...it looks as though the Burlington valley is in Canada, and it was already settled by Anglophones at this time. There are a lot of French-Canadian decended people in Upstate NY/Northern New England in OTL, but that's because of immigration during the 1800's to work in the mills, not historical settlement patterns.

 

[Othniel]

New Brunswick only developed a seperate identity due to the loyalists settling in the southern area. I see no reason why it would develop into a seperate area from Novia Scotia otherwise. The only calving of states that happened in OTL was Maine from Massachusetts and Virginia from West Virginia. Maybe when Maine is split off in 1820 OTL's New Brunswick is included.

Acuatly NB is part of Nova Scotia right now, but it will merge with Maine later on that and the borders weren't really set for that region so I'm working with a supreme court here...

As to your map Othniel, I only have a few issues with the boders of Canada and Huron Territory.

1. the U.S. wouldn't have any outlets on the Hudson Bay. This area was all but uninhabited and owned by the Hudson's Bay Company seperately from the British crown at the time. The States may eventually buy some land from the Hudson's Bay Company of course, but I wouldn't expect it yet.

I know, but I also know the French had a claim on that territory before the war, I also know the US will challange the border area, like they did with the Maine-NB border, also think they might use traditional trading rights to operate within the HBC's area. (See the American Fur Trading Company..) However I can see that your right in this...

2. Canada should extend further up the northern bank of the St. Lawrence bay and include that island (all fairly densely populated Francophone areas). On the other hand, you shouldn't have extended the border of Canada southward...it looks as though the Burlington valley is in Canada, and it was already settled by Anglophones at this time. There are a lot of French-Canadian decended people in Upstate NY/Northern New England in OTL, but that's because of immigration during the 1800's to work in the mills, not historical settlement patterns.

I didn't mean to extend it southward, but I accidentially erased the border while attempting to thin it. I simply went with the Canadian side, which had the adverse effect of making the border look further south. Ignore it, and make it right in your own mind if thats what it takes... (Vermont for example, as well as parts of upper NY were part of New France...)

 

[Othniel]

Here we are;

 

[kingdobbs]

New Brunswick only developed a seperate identity due to the loyalists settling in the southern area. I see no reason why it would develop into a seperate area from Novia Scotia otherwise. The only calving of states that happened in OTL was Maine from Massachusetts and Virginia from West Virginia. Maybe when Maine is split off in 1820 OTL's New Brunswick is included.

It may still be so that the "New Brunswick" area of Nova Scotia gets enough population to petition for statehood. I say this is especially likely if the Acadians, removed from Nova Scotia by the British, return now that the territory is in American hands. In that case, they may not want to be dominated from "far-away" Halifax by a primarily English speaking population.