American Guyana

[DominusNovus]

I haven't posted a 'WI the US annexes so-and-so' thread in awhile, and I'm starting to get night sweats and it feels like there's ants crawling over my skin.

So, what if the US were to annex Guyana? What would be the most likely scenario for this, and what would the results be? Its worth noting that there are about a third as many Guyanese living in the US as there are living in Guyana itself.

Maybe its an oversized version of the Destroyers for Bases program (oh, actually, now I want to do a 'Cruisers for Colonies' thread... maybe next time) or maybe the US steps in when Venezuela is encroaching on Guyana post-independence.

As for what use Guyana would be to the US, there is a blossoming oil sector that just started in 2019, plus the equatorial location would be useful for a launch site for rockets (just make sure not to bump into any French rockets on the way up!). Other than that, not much, other than more map painting - reason enough for me!

 

[overoceans]

I wonder if the People's Temple would still have gone there if it was part of the USA.

 

[Lalli]

Why USA would do that? THey justy would piss Brits. Only ways would are if Britain on some reason decide sell Guyana to USA or the countries are on some reason on war with each others.

After independence it is extrmeley implausible when USA hadn't anymore expansionist politics.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

Do you mean British Guiana specifically or are you also including French and/or Dutch (Suriname) Guiana? If it's British Guiana, you'd need more than destroyers for bases. You'd probably need to go in the other direction, as in have war break out between the USA and the UK.

Why USA would do that? THey justy would piss Brits. Only ways would are if Britain on some reason decide sell Guyana to USA or the countries are on some reason on war with each others.

You could sour relations sufficiently to get a war, if not with a post-1900 POD then certainly one in the 1890s.

 

[Paradoxer]

I haven't posted a 'WI the US annexes so-and-so' thread in awhile, and I'm starting to get night sweats and it feels like there's ants crawling over my skin.

So, what if the US were to annex Guyana? What would be the most likely scenario for this, and what would the results be? Its worth noting that there are about a third as many Guyanese living in the US as there are living in Guyana itself.

Maybe its an oversized version of the Destroyers for Bases program (oh, actually, now I want to do a 'Cruisers for Colonies' thread... maybe next time) or maybe the US steps in when Venezuela is encroaching on Guyana post-independence.

As for what use Guyana would be to the US, there is a blossoming oil sector that just started in 2019, plus the equatorial location would be useful for a launch site for rockets (just make sure not to bump into any French rockets on the way up!). Other than that, not much, other than more map painting - reason enough for me!

The US buys them off French and Dutch then eventually UK too along with their Caribbean holdings. Immigrants to US especially when air conditioning becomes a thing will completely change demographics. Somewhat hard to predict due to variety of possible immigrants or neighboring conflicts.

Hispanics from Venezuela and Brazilians from south might come into place in large numbers especially 60s and onwards. Along with some Caribbean people but if US takes Guyana’s they likely take more Caribbean islands too especially if some figure out even a Puerto Rico status under US might be preferably to Europeans or independence

 

[H.Flashman(VC)]

Does the US want such a long difficult to control landborder in South America? It will certainly attract smugglers.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Given the US/Venezuela relationship which was historically rather positive, I could see the US returning the disputed portion of Guyana to Venezuela for some trade concessions or cash. Venezuela would almost certainly agree given the country was dependent on the US for a lot of things and whoever was president would love to be known for legally reclaiming Venezuela's land. Money/debt was always an issue for Venezuela, but during one of the upswings in oil prices Venezuela could likely pay.

I did a post on this a few years ago here. If the US gets Guyana, then expect it to be a mix of Florida, Alaska, and Hawaii but entirely it's own thing. I think statehood is likely since it will desire statehood, have the population for it, and will likely get a lot of white immigrants from the mainland US (much as Hawaii did). Like Hawaii, it would be Asian American plurality, although in this case the Asian American group would be the Indo-Guyanese population. The economy would be centered around tourism, the space industry, and especially mining (gold and bauxite) and US military bases.

I wonder if the People's Temple would still have gone there if it was part of the USA.

I doubt it. OTL Jim Jones liked Guyana because it was led by non-white socialists out to build a better society (and therefore more or less free of white supremacy which would be good for his mostly non-white church) and believed that Guyana's remoteness and political stance would ensure it survived the inevitable nuclear war. TTL that wouldn't be the case since Guyana would be a US territory and possibly even a US state and will likely have far more white people who will have disproportionate influence on the state's politics (like in Hawaii basically). The military bases, possible rocket launch facilities, and ports for exporting crucial war materials like bauxite will make Guyana an obvious target for a Soviet nuclear strike. So unless Jim Jones finds a reason to go there, he'd look elsewhere, maybe Brazil like he'd once planned. Given Brazil's social conditions and Jim Jones's socialist ideology, I wonder if it would end up like Canudos did.

 

[Horton229]

Depending on when, it might make cricket (slightly) more popular in the US.

 

[Paradoxer]

Given the US/Venezuela relationship which was historically rather positive, I could see the US returning the disputed portion of Guyana to Venezuela for some trade concessions or cash. Venezuela would almost certainly agree given the country was dependent on the US for a lot of things and whoever was president would love to be known for legally reclaiming Venezuela's land. Money/debt was always an issue for Venezuela, but during one of the upswings in oil prices Venezuela could likely pay.

I did a post on this a few years ago here. If the US gets Guyana, then expect it to be a mix of Florida, Alaska, and Hawaii but entirely it's own thing. I think statehood is likely since it will desire statehood, have the population for it, and will likely get a lot of white immigrants from the mainland US (much as Hawaii did). Like Hawaii, it would be Asian American plurality, although in this case the Asian American group would be the Indo-Guyanese population. The economy would be centered around tourism, the space industry, and especially mining (gold and bauxite) and US military bases.

I doubt it. OTL Jim Jones liked Guyana because it was led by non-white socialists out to build a better society (and therefore more or less free of white supremacy which would be good for his mostly non-white church) and believed that Guyana's remoteness and political stance would ensure it survived the inevitable nuclear war. TTL that wouldn't be the case since Guyana would be a US territory and possibly even a US state and will likely have far more white people who will have disproportionate influence on the state's politics (like in Hawaii basically). The military bases, possible rocket launch facilities, and ports for exporting crucial war materials like bauxite will make Guyana an obvious target for a Soviet nuclear strike. So unless Jim Jones finds a reason to go there, he'd look elsewhere, maybe Brazil like he'd once planned. Given Brazil's social conditions and Jim Jones's socialist ideology, I wonder if it would end up like Canudos did.

Hawaii is majority Asian. Polynesians and whites make up plurality and minorities. The island full of Japanese and filipino people. The Asians there for some reason just often go “native” as they say(identify with Polynesian culture more so).

For example, those scenes in Lilo and stitch with ginger bully if accurate would have her getting her teeth kicked in by local Asians and Polynesians because she is a “little raggedy Ann white bitch” picking on local girl(lilo).

Indo-Guyanese population likely becomes small minority. The European colonies in Guyana are already diverse due to immigrants from other parts of it colonial empires it was under. But if part of US a bunch of Hispanics from west and Brazilians from south likely displace them completely along with American settlers before that.

Much of population is on coastline too. The US will build infrastructure to more easily develop and travel through inland even jungle areas

 

[Arkenfolm]

Indo-Guyanese population likely becomes small minority. The European colonies in Guyana are already diverse due to immigrants from other parts of it colonial empires it was under. But if part of US a bunch of Hispanics from west and Brazilians from south likely displace them completely along with American settlers before that.

Why? The Indo-Guyanese were the largest group by the mid-20th century (43% of the population in 1946) and formed a lot of the middle class. Guyana was/is diverse, but the vast majority of the populace was either Afro-Guyanese, Indo-Guyanese, mixed-race (which mostly meant mixed Indian-African), or indigenous.

I think you're overestimating the amount of immigration. Guyana would not attract many new permanent residents because for quite some time it will be a very poor (by US standards) territory. Oh, they will come, since with A/C and modern medicine it's a tropical paradise, but that won't be until the 60s or so. Cost of living will also be very high since for all intents and purposes, Guyana is an island, although I imagine the US would invest in much greater road/rail connections to Venezuela and something similar in Suriname and Brazil to link the region.

As for Venezuelan/Brazilian/Surinamese immigration, that would happen too, but it comes back to the economic issues. It's not a major population area and many jobs would not be for low-skill workers. Guyana is also very remote from the well-populated parts of Brazil and to a lesser degree Venezuela. An illegal immigrant in Guyana would rather find a way to Florida or elsewhere than remain there. I think it's hard to imagine more than 40% of the population being white and Hispanic.

Much of population is on coastline too. The US will build infrastructure to more easily develop and travel through inland even jungle areas

They'd have a lot of national parks because of the huge amount of biodiversity, and it is interesting how the US might extend Indian law to the indigenous Guyanese. Guyana uses a lot of river barges OTL given the many navigable rivers and the poor state of roads.

 

[DominusNovus]

Factors to consider, esp w/regard to immigration, are if it becomes a state, and how quickly oil is discovered. It might be a tropical paradise, but so is Puerto Rico, and not too many people from the mainland go to live there. That might change with statehood, and it certainly would change with oil.

 

[Paradoxer]

Suriname

Is Suriname not part of US Guyana? I was assuming it was while US and Venezuela split British Guyana?

 

[DominusNovus]

Is Suriname not part of US Guyana? I was assuming it was while US and Venezuela split British Guyana?

Open for discussion. Now, personally, I think the idea of the US accepting Venezuelan claims is remote, if only because their claims are most of the country. But its a free discussion, go nuts!

 

[Paradoxer]

Open for discussion. Now, personally, I think the idea of the US accepting Venezuelan claims is remote, if only because their claims are most of the country. But its a free discussion, go nuts!

Don’t see it unlikely for US to give them whole thing if they have Dutch and French Guyana. Imagine even if they had all of British one too they would have Guyana as one state if it became one. If they split it with Venezuela they do it along Essequibo River.

This would increase US influence in Brazil and Venezuela. Venezuela has oil so they might be given all of Guyana to make them close ally and in exchange Americans get all free trade and access to their market especially oil they want.

Another interesting issue that could propped up is when cocaine drug trafficking takes off. Now you have part of US where Americans can “cut out middle man” and not deal with customs as much since they are in US because they can grow coke in Guyana.

A lot southerner whites might move into especially to rural parts. You also might have some of “old money” southerners descendants who fled US to Brazil after civil war try to move there by claiming citizenship through blood. The mafia might also try to build Vegas there instead and traffic drugs out of there

 

[xerex]

Oh cool we get a nice Communist uprising in the 60s devolving into the USs own version of the Troubles.

I don't see Guyana becoming a state. Not with the Jim Crow South fighting for its life and with the heavy pro socialist outlook of both its major political groupings.

This is likely to turn into the US own version of Northern Ireland.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

Guyana, USA – Dedicated to an American Guyana

www.guyanausa.org

Maybe so many Guyanese immigrate to the US that the country decides to request Commonwealth Status akin to Puerto Rico?


=====

If the late-1930s proposal where France hands over its Caribbean and Pacific colonies to the US for the right to purchase an unlimited number of aircraft on credit were to go through, perhaps this gets followed up by the Dutch seeking to pawn of Surinam and the Dutch half of Sint Maarten to the US. Once the US has a border with Guyana, Guyana at some point goes what the heck and requests to join the US.


Maybe Roosevelt decides to use an American Guyana as a solution to the Jewish refugee question? The British wanted to stick a bunch of Jews there IIRC.

Senator Jagan would be a funny thing, no?

 

[xerex]

Guyana, USA – Dedicated to an American Guyana

www.guyanausa.org

Maybe so many Guyanese immigrate to the US that the country decides to request Commonwealth Status akin to Puerto Rico?


=====

If the late-1930s proposal where France hands over its Caribbean and Pacific colonies to the US for the right to purchase an unlimited number of aircraft on credit were to go through, perhaps this gets followed up by the Dutch seeking to pawn of Surinam and the Dutch half of Sint Maarten to the US. Once the US has a border with Guyana, Guyana at some point goes what the heck and requests to join the US.


Maybe Roosevelt decides to use an American Guyana as a solution to the Jewish refugee question? The British wanted to stick a bunch of Jews there IIRC.

View attachment 672350

Senator Jagan would be a funny thing, no?

Given that Janet Jagan was a full blown pro Castro Marxist. Yes very funny.

 

[DominusNovus]

If the late-1930s proposal where France hands over its Caribbean and Pacific colonies to the US for the right to purchase an unlimited number of aircraft on credit were to go through, perhaps this gets followed up by the Dutch seeking to pawn of Surinam and the Dutch half of Sint Maarten to the US. Once the US has a border with Guyana, Guyana at some point goes what the heck and requests to join the US.

I had seen the website you linked, and chuckled at it. Got any good sources on the proposal you mention?

 

[Paradoxer]

Oh cool we get a nice Communist uprising in the 60s devolving into the USs own version of the Troubles.

I don't see Guyana becoming a state. Not with the Jim Crow South fighting for its life and with the heavy pro socialist outlook of both its major political groupings.

This is likely to turn into the US own version of Northern Ireland.

If it’s made a state or even commonwealth a bunch of natives will go to mainland especially post 60s for work while Americans and immigrants move in on now cheapen land.

For example, if Puerto Rico became state today many would immediately go to places like Florida, the Carolinas, New York area, or anywhere along east coast and gulf. This leads to immigration boom of Americans especially middle and upper class paying discounted land prices from people leaving region for main 48 states

 

[Deleted member 109224]

I had seen the website you linked, and chuckled at it. Got any good sources on the proposal you mention?

Édouard Daladier - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In addition, France had defaulted on its World War I debts in 1932 and so fell foul of the 1934 Johnson Act, which banned American loans to nations that had defaulted on their World War I debts.[28] In February 1939, the French offered to cede their possessions in the Caribbean and the Pacific, together with a lump sum payment of 10 billion francs, in exchange for the unlimited right to buy American aircraft on credit.[29]

After tortuous negotiations, an arrangement was worked out in the spring of 1939 to allow the French to place huge orders with the American aircraft industry, but as most of the aircraft ordered had not arrived in France by 1940, the Americans arranged for French orders to be diverted to the British.[30]