America Be Watching With The Popcorn: A Sino-Soviet War TL

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El Pip

Dolnikan said:
What this also shows is that nukes aren't the ultimate guarantee. What's much more important is the delivery system. Everyone will be looking for a way to hit actually relevant targets and to get through the inevitable air defenses.
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Indeed, China had nukes and they only made things worse for them. All they did was escalate a conventional fight (which they might have won, or at least fought to a bloody stalemate) into a catastrophic nuclear defeat.

I still think that after everyone has calmed down the lesson will be do nukes properly or not at all. Many nations could build a nuclear weapon if they tried, but China has just proved air launched delivery is uncertain at best and you can be sure the Soviets will be upgrading their own air defences after this experience. The conclusion will be that at a minimum you will need IRBM/ICBMs which plausibly could hit the Soviets (so you will need to test them and those tests had better work), suitably miniaturised nukes (which are harder to make than just a bomb), a very good early warning radar network, silos, etc. It is a lot of money to build and then a lot of money to keep on constant alert, and upgraded.

That said the gold standard deterrent, a continuous at-sea SSBN will be even more valuable so lots of people will look at them. But then be put off by the massive cost and complexity. Depends on political will I suppose.
 
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West

So lets talk about media or china's place in it.

This is happening just before the Kung fu craze really hits steam. That craze more or less was pretty dominate during the 70s

But china was destroyed so this is butterflied away right? No, hongkong was not touched they are still making movies, and you don't have Mao's china besmeching china's rep. So thats gone.

What you have instead is the set up for tragic heros who lost everything because of the bombs, sympathatic figures, post apocoliptic settings, and chaos. I think the kungfu craze if anything is going to be stronger then OTL. With some of the asian actors crossing over into 80s action films. Think of it your looking for a buddy action film with the soviets as the bad guys? Well putting in a chinese side kick that knows kung fu and has the pathos of having his entire family murdered by soviets works.

I think your going to see a lot more asian american actors in general.
 

BrockSampson

West said:
So lets talk about media or china's place in it.

This is happening just before the Kung fu craze really hits steam. That craze more or less was pretty dominate during the 70s

But china was destroyed so this is butterflied away right? No, hongkong was not touched they are still making movies, and you don't have Mao's china besmeching china's rep. So thats gone.

What you have instead is the set up for tragic heros who lost everything because of the bombs, sympathatic figures, post apocoliptic settings, and chaos. I think the kungfu craze if anything is going to be stronger then OTL. With some of the asian actors crossing over into 80s action films. Think of it your looking for a buddy action film with the soviets as the bad guys? Well putting in a chinese side kick that knows kung fu and has the pathos of having his entire family murdered by soviets works.

I think your going to see a lot more asian american actors in general.
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As a fan of Shaw Bros and kung fu films in general, this is a nice silver lining. The Soviets would be as equally demonized as the Qing and Japanese in such films. If Fists of Fury comes out similar to OTL then Bruce Lee’s “We are not sick men!” Line would take on a whole new meaning.
 
'MURICA Update
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    • theflyingmongoose

    Due to Richard Nixon's absurdly big governing mandate, the White House pushed an aggressive agenda for 1972 and 1973. Universal health care had received previously been supported by a significant chunk of congress but had never been passed. Now, with cancer scares and increasing health costs, the government was ready to push it.

    The American Health Act of 1973 (dubbed 'Nixoncare') would create a 'National Health Service', which would provide free health care for all American citizens and permanent residents. The act passed congress by a fair margin (273-154-8 and 54-40-6) and was signed by President Nixon in early March. Nixon also signed more sanctions on Russia (which at this point meant no American could do business with them) and encouraged trade with American allies instead.

    Cases of racism and hate crimes against people of color in the United States actually went down, as a national camaraderie of 'heh at least were not those commies' was increasingly prevalent. On the other hand, many travelers from Russia were discriminated against. But the big news in America was the changing foreign relations. Because of the war, plenty of countries were moving towards America and away from Russia. Congress approved an additional $10 Billion in aid to those countries for the sake of 'national defense'.

    Many communist countries not stuck to the USSR for economic or military reasons adopted a more Yugoslavian style of foreign affairs, opening up relations and trade with the west. These countries included Albania and North Vietnam, along with many African countries. But foreign affairs wasn't at the forefront of the Nixon administration's policy.

    In the aftermath of the Sino-Soviet war, the defense budget was greatly changed. The total amount didn't go up much, but the recipients did. Funding for ground troops and vehicles was cut, with over 50% of ground forces being mustered out or retrained. Most of the newly freed-up money went to the anti-ICBM program and various aircraft programs, particularly in the field of interceptors and multirole fighters.

    The anti-ICBM program, or the High-Altitude Intercontinental Ballistic Missile Interception System, was started in 1971 following the war. The program's two stages were a satellite network for tracking and a supersonic attack vehicle. The attack vehicle was attached to a missile and was relatively cheap. Testing was promising and 1 Satellite and 50 missiles were in place by the end of 1973.

    But the most exciting things that were happening in America had to do with the space program. Previously, the Apollo program was going to be canceled after Apollo 17, but following the nuclear war some genius in P.R. decided that showcasing that America was doing good things with rockets and missiles could increase the international reputation of the country. Apollo 18, 19 and 20 were launched in 1973, with Apollo 21 scheduled for early 1974.

    Things were looking up for America.
     
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    • BrockSampson

    I would think the Navy would get a boost in funding (at the Army and Marine Corps expense) alongside the Air Force. Sub launched nukes would be too close for effective interception, and carrier groups are nice targets for hurting enemy power projection when you don’t have an effective navy yourself (as the Soviets struggled with).
    Also, Europe will be throwing money at the US for those missile defense systems.
     

    theflyingmongoose

    BrockSampson said:
    I would think the Navy would get a boost in funding (at the Army and Marine Corps expense) alongside the Air Force. Sub launched nukes would be too close for effective interception, and carrier groups are nice targets for hurting enemy power projection when you don’t have an effective navy yourself (as the Soviets struggled with).
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    The navy's budget stays the same, except the recipients were changed. New missile submarines are being developed while destroyers and other conventional ships are being cut.
     

    theflyingmongoose

    In Europe Albania is the only one that can, while North Vietnam in asia is doing the same thing. Those are the only communist countries that are changing. Plenty of African countries that only claim to be communist for weapons are changing sides as well.
     
    PNWKing

    PNWKing

    Banned
    I kind of wonder what's up with Andrew Yang's family? Yang himself would only be about 2 years old, but I'd imagine that Chinese-Americans are being seen in a more positive light and Yang's family (from Taiwan, but probably from China 1-2 generations back) is probably basking in the glow.
     

    kessock

    theflyingmongoose said:
    In the aftermath of the Sino-Soviet war, the defense budget was greatly changed. The total amount didn't go up much, but the recipients did. Funding for ground troops and vehicles was cut, with over 50% of ground forces being mustered out or retrained. Most of the newly freed-up money went to the anti-ICBM program and various aircraft programs, particularly in the field of interceptors and multirole fighters.

    The anti-ICBM program, or the High-Altitude Intercontinental Ballistic Missile Interception System, was started in 1971 following the war. The program featured three stages, which included a satellite network (to track launches), modified Titan-1 Missiles for high-altitude interception, and modified RIM-8 Talos Missiles, which were to be used in last-resort situations when the Titans failed. Test results were promising, and 10 units were rolled-out in Alaska and Hawaii by the end of 1973.
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    Why would they re-invent the wheel? Safeguard is under development and in planning for deployment with Sprint and Spartan finishing up testing . If they're going for an ABM system, they would quite quickly go back to the beefier Sentinel with the same missiles and massively expand it.
     

    seraphim74

    I wonder what Warsaw Pact countries look like ITTL. The Prague Spring was crushed before the war. The Soviet bear seems even more dangerous after practically destroying China. Any thinking about liberalization and bigger independence is considered a pipe dream now.
    Economy is also down. WP nations sent humanitarian help to China and I'm pretty sure USSR demanded some help too - after all, they suffered heavy losses. That's additional burden for Central-Eastern Europe. Add to that increase of military spending (in responce to Western countries strenghtening their forces) and the fact that the Western sanctions against USSR would probably include its satelites. Warsaw, Budapest, Prague etc. are not happy places right now. That might cause some protests (IOTL in 1970 there were serious protests in Poland, only 2 years after WP intervention in Czechoslovakia), but IMO they will be quickly crushed since fear of Soviet intervention will be bigger. At least for some time.
    USSR and WP need some kind of economic help from the West. So perhaps the Soviets might try on their own some kind of detente, liberalization etc. Problem is nobody in West will believe it. And the Soviets will be terrified by US anti-missile program; they will need something similar on their own or more and more missiles to overcome American defense system. Both solutions are expensive and can be done only at a large cost of civilian production. So if Nixon and NATO go full arms race ITTL, the Eastern Block economy might simply break down.
    That could be good or bad. Good, since the Soviets might make some large concessions in exchange for economic help. WP countries might revolt or at least success in achieving more independence and perhaps some economic reforms (like OTL China style). Bad, because the Soviets might decide they need to hit West now as long as they still can win (which is debatable). Soviet armed forces suffered heavy losses and nuclear treshold had already been crossed. The nukes might start flying.
     
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