Allied Intervention in Winter War

[Grimm Reaper]

The Allies never actually invaded Norway as troops weren't dispatched until after the German invasion. Also, since Stalin was able to negotiate a settlement with Finland in OTL why couldn't he grant slightly more favorable terms to Helsinki if he sees support coming to the Finns?

Of course, if the result is a more Allied-leaning Finland which stays out in 1941 then the Soviets did well by this.

 

[MerryPrankster]

The Allies never actually invaded Norway as troops weren't dispatched until after the German invasion. Also, since Stalin was able to negotiate a settlement with Finland in OTL why couldn't he grant slightly more favorable terms to Helsinki if he sees support coming to the Finns?

Of course, if the result is a more Allied-leaning Finland which stays out in 1941 then the Soviets did well by this.

For all his amoral cleverness, Stalin was an idiot as far as Finland and the Baltics were concerned.

Brutalizing Finland pretty much guaranteed it would ally with Hitler against the USSR, while the fact that huge numbers of the Baltic peoples collaborated with the Nazis probably has to do with the naked imperialism and tyranny which the Soviets indulged in there.

Here's an idea:

If the Soviets get a thumping from the Allied forces before peace is declared, might this affect Soviet war preparations and tactics?

Surely the enormous effort expended to conquer some small slices of Finland made Stalin realize how ill-prepared the Soviets were, but defeat by a much more heavily-armed, mechanized force might get certain people in the USSR thinking.

 

[arctic warrior]

Here's an idea:

If the Soviets get a thumping from the Allied forces before peace is declared, might this affect Soviet war preparations and tactics?

Surely the enormous effort expended to conquer some small slices of Finland made Stalin realize how ill-prepared the Soviets were, but defeat by a much more heavily-armed, mechanized force might get certain people in the USSR thinking.

But the Allied mechanized forces was in Eastern France or building in Britian, wasn't it?

But of course any force going to Finland would hopefully bring their heavy equipment along - if they don't manage to lose it like in OTL, having it fooling around on the lake or not being able to unload.

 

[ResPublica]

Actually, many socialist parties in the period paid lip service to the idea of a revolution at some distant day; and I guess Sweden never had a Popular Front?

No they didn't, they all thought a revolution would come. The question were what kinde of goverment there would be after the revolution and if it would be violent. In Finland the Finnish SDP fought a bloody civil war 1918 to form a Parlamentary Democracy (a republic). The conservative side won (whit German and Swedish help) and tried to form a monarcy that unraveld (Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim were one they offerd the throne to afther the German prince baked out of it).

Sweden had a "popular front" during late 19th and early 20th centuary (actualy it were the SD partie and the unions combined) but it were unraveld 1917 befor the Finnish civil war (were the Finnish SDP were the leader of the Red army) whit radical groups breaking free to form the Swedish Comunist Party (may 13, 1917) whitout union suport. Its the singel moste important factor that made it posible for Swedish conservatives to avoid the Finnish civil war to spill over to Sweden (by striking bargings whit Swedish SDP).

There's some difference between socialist and socialdemocratic.
The last ones, at least the Danes, definately viewed the Communists the greater threat.

I don't knowe when the radical socialist broke free from the Danish SDP but I konw that the Swedish and the Danish SDP both feelt the same thing for the Communists.

 

[ResPublica]

Now I'm just going by the article and memory - would the demand of moving the border 25 km further away from Leningrad, i.e. that is up to Vouksen and in front of the Mannerheim Line be acceptable,
return of POWs,
no turn over of industry except what would be in the ceded area on the Isthmus,
no base on Hangö and
abolishing the Kuusiinen Republic.
Of course the Allied action would secure Petsamo remaining Finn as I percieve it.

Well my Grandfathers brothers would not Fight over Isthmus only... Not as he told me. The POWs, the Industry and the treatment were the insults that made the peace unliveable. I wonder if he still comes to Sweden in search for work...

Edited: whit Kuuskiinen Republic you mean the Terijoki Government or the Finnshi Democratic Republic stalin formed to rule Finland?

 

[chris N]

The Allied intervention force that I had planned for this operation would consist of three divisions, 1 British (actually consisting of 4 Brigades with all of their support equipment),1 French (alpine rgt, FFL Rgt, tank Bn, artillery rgts, AA BN), Polish Infantry Division ( the Polish infantry/mtn division would be made up of troops that had made their way to France and were rearmed,trained and equipped by the French) In our time line these troops were used to intervene in Norway but I have them leaving much earlier so as to have a major impact on the War in Finland.
The British government was able to supply Finland with some arms and aircraft But it is known that if the British had asked the US Govt was willing to supply 100,000 refurbished WW1 rifles used by the AEF in that war as well as 100x 75mm artillery pieces that were in excellant condition and much more modern than most of the Finnish artillery.
The allied divisions would have all of the artillery that would normally be in those divisions thus they would have a very powerful punch. In addition I would have the Royal Navy together with the French Navy provide a naval escort. Two aircraft carriers could provide an effect strike force on the soviet.

 

[MerryPrankster]

The allied divisions would have all of the artillery that would normally be in those divisions thus they would have a very powerful punch. In addition I would have the Royal Navy together with the French Navy provide a naval escort. Two aircraft carriers could provide an effect strike force on the soviet.

Can WWII carrier groups operate effectively in the Arctic?

Besides, there's still the matter of the German threat to France and the Low Countries. I think the Allies would keep a fair bit of their hardware back to deal with any potential German thrust westward.

 

[ResPublica]

Can WWII carrier groups operate effectively in the Arctic?

In the midle of an arctic Winter? No! Neither can modern. Can't find the link to when USA or UK tried it in the 90is but it ended horribly for some poor pilot.

 

[arctic warrior]

I don't knowe when the radical socialist broke free from the Danish SDP but I konw that the Swedish and the Danish SDP both feelt the same thing for the Communists.

I can't figure out what you mean by radical socialst in Denmark.

AFAIK there haven't been any splits off the Danish SDP.
There was a lot of splits off the Communist Party post-WWII.

 

[arctic warrior]

Well my Grandfathers brothers would not Fight over Isthmus only... Not as he told me. The POWs, the Industry and the treatment were the insults that made the peace unliveable. I wonder if he still comes to Sweden in search for work...

Edited: whit Kuuskiinen Republic you mean the Terijoki Government or the Finnshi Democratic Republic stalin formed to rule Finland?

I do, but Otto Kuusinen was the head of the Finnish Democratic Republic as I remember.

 

[chris N]

Actually, the force that I proposed using was what was actually deployed to Norway to cope with the German Invasion. The force was not going to seriously weaken the allied defence of western europe unless it was doubled or tripled in size.
It would seem that if the weather would prevent a landing in the northern port of Petsamo or the capture of Murmask that a diplomatic agreement would have to quickly be reached with Norway and Sweden to allow the rapid transit by train to Finland. Some of the arms could be flown in bombers or seaplanes to Finland (I am talking about those extra rifles and ammunition possibly some of the artillery).

 

[arctic warrior]

Actually, the force that I proposed using was what was actually deployed to Norway to cope with the German Invasion. The force was not going to seriously weaken the allied defence of western europe unless it was doubled or tripled in size.
It would seem that if the weather would prevent a landing in the northern port of Petsamo or the capture of Murmask that a diplomatic agreement would have to quickly be reached with Norway and Sweden to allow the rapid transit by train to Finland. Some of the arms could be flown in bombers or seaplanes to Finland (I am talking about those extra rifles and ammunition possibly some of the artillery).

Come on man - we have been taking this seriously.
Now its your turn - how would this change vis-a-vis OTL come about?
The Scandinavians were quite reluctant to take part in anything!

 

[Superdude]

How would 3 divisions hold up against the weight of the Red Army?

Just reminding you that the Finns were steamrollered when the Soviets got their act together.

 

[ResPublica]

I can't figure out what you mean by radical socialst in Denmark.

AFAIK there haven't been any splits off the Danish SDP.
There was a lot of splits off the Communist Party post-WWII.

I meant the communist, anarchists and syndicalists... In Sweden they ended up in the swedish SDP only to split out and form their own partys 1917, in Finland they ended up in the finnish SDP only to be eliminated after the lost civill war 1918. I don't know how these groups acted and interacted whit the Danish SDP or the Norwegian SDP.

 

[ResPublica]

How would 3 divisions hold up against the weight of the Red Army?

Just reminding you that the Finns were steamrollered when the Soviets got their act together.

What act? What steemrolling? Finland had a quarter milion soldiers, ill equiped and short of supplies whit no tanks and no air cover aginst a million Soviet soldiers whit tanks and air supperiorety and yeat Finland never got steemrolled.

At the battle of Suomussalmi 11 000 Finnish troops whitout tanks defeted 50 000 soviet troops whit tanks, killing 27 500 and destroying 85 tanks (and nearly 600 truks and capturing 6000 rifles and over 100 canons).

I don't se any act and sertanley no streemrolling comming togheter.

So 3 divisions of Allied troops whit tanks and artillery would do great against the Soviets 1939/1940.

 

[chris N]

It would appear that the allies would have to exert some forceful persuasion that the movement of allied forces through Norway and Sweden was not for the purpose of siezing the Swedish Iron Ore but of aiding Finland. Thus the allies would have to be prepared to act quickly.
Naval forces should have also been kept ready to repond to any german invasion of norway. If the Royal navy had caught the German invasion forces at sea then the invasion would have ended right then.
While30-50,000 men may not seem to be a lot they could have greatly aided the Finns and tipped the balance back in favor of the defence. The allied troops would be well equipped with artillery,At Weapons and even AA. In addition it is likely that more RAF units would have joined them meaning that the soviets would have to struggle to control the air and might there have been airrais on Lenningrad/

 

[chris N]

The Allies have moved its expeditionary force and have managed to pressure the Norwegian and Swedish governments to allow it to proceed by rail to Finland. The Royal Navy has escoted a small landing force to the port of Petasmo. Since this is an ice free port and the allies arrive before Soviet forces are able to reach it the port is secured. The British foce that lands at the port is a reinforced Battalion. It consist of an Infantry battalion with an attached artillery btty, At btty and AA artillery btty. It also has attached to it a detachment of Royal Marines. The force is to defend the port against soviet attack and co-operate with finnish forces.
Supplies of rifles and artillery have been dispatched by the British by rail through Norway and Finland. These arms have bee sent from the US after a british request to FDR.

 

[ResPublica]

What is the POD? At wich date is it?

How do the Allies make Norway and Sweden giv after to Allied persuation to let tropps pass via Narvik-Kiruna-Luleå? Why would the Allies not ocupie the mines in nothern Sweden when the troops are at place?

How do Stalin reakt?

How do Hittler reakt?

How do the Scandinavian nations reakt?

 

[arctic warrior]

What is the POD? At wich date is it?

How do the Allies make Norway and Sweden giv after to Allied persuation to let tropps pass via Narvik-Kiruna-Luleå? Why would the Allies not ocupie the mines in nothern Sweden when the troops are at place?

How do Stalin reakt?

How do Hittler reakt?

How do the Scandinavian nations reakt?

Quite valid questions to be answered, but I don't think you be getting any morte than I did on this:

Come on man - we have been taking this seriously.
Now its your turn - how would this change vis-a-vis OTL come about?
The Scandinavians were quite reluctant to take part in anything!

 

[ResPublica]

Quite valid questions to be answered, but I don't think you be getting any morte than I did on this:

To bad, this post stired my intrest in the dynamics around Scandinavia befor and during WW2... I envisoned a TL where the air war for brittan is moved to the scy of southern Sweden whit Allied forces clashing against Soviet Forces in Finnish border forestes and Danish resistance is helped by Norweigian fishermens smugeling in arms and radiosets and smugeling out Jews on the kattergat.

The battle of Scandinavia, four tiny nations saying no to the giants of europe... *dreaming away about a Scandiwank*