AHQ: Why did monotheism generally replace polytheism?

Not sure a proselytizing religion converting one emperor out of dozens has much weight in this context though.
It wasn’t just one Emperor. It was the most longest-reigning, most militarily successful Emperor (possibly ever), and most administratively successful of his era. He also had the very visible scene of having come to the throne through “divine” help (whose was eventually decided to be the Christian God’s), and very visibly opposing two anti-Christian rulers (even if one only leaned that way after Constantine picked a fight with him) who he defeated. He also founded the new capital, an explicitly Christian city, which would be one of the greatest in the world for…oh roughly 300 years. And the greatest in the Christian world for longer.

And unlike a similarly successful Emperor like Aurelian Constantine reigned for 31 years. Far, far longer than the average.
 
Although you have to jump through some hoops, you could argue that these fall under monotheistic

me dumb pls elaborate
If people argue Zoroastrianism is not as polytheistic as pre-Zoroastrian Iranian polytheism the distnguishing between Islam and Christianity makes sense.

Basically as much as people argue "one god is simpler so more people would accept a simple message" there is clearly also a demand for personalized, localized(geographically or demographically) religious traditions, whether that is done through venerating ancestors, local gods, certain angels, local heroes or saints doesn't fundamentally change the basic idea.
 
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Yeah, they invited the poor and downtrodden and preached against money-lending and unjust kings. Early Christians were akin to early socialists (a direct comparison would not be correct, but it works as a simile) and represented positive change (whether they followed through depends on your religious beliefs, I imagine - personally I would say they did not).
I think this is exactly right, and also a big part of why Islam spread so much. As an economist and a big student of economic history, I think a lot of people don't appreciate how modern middle class societies have such a different social structure to most of history. Prior to 1600, the vast, vast majority of people in every society eked out survival on. The edge of subsistence. The rich and powerful would have seemed untouchable to them, almost a species apart. And they were recognized as such by societal and legal structures. Then suddenly a belief system comes along that says you are spiritually equal to them in the eyes of divine? That is incredibly liberating psychologically.

And I think here lies the clue of why monotheism has dominated. Spiritual equality is much more likely to come from a monotheistic religion than a polytheistic one. If man is created by one God, they are much more likely to be equally created than if lots of Gods are involved.
 
Basically as much as people argue "one god is simpler so more people would accept a simple message" there is clearly also a demand for personalized, localized(geographically or demographically) religious traditions, whether that is done through venerating ancestors, local gods, certain angels, local heroes or saints doesn't fundamentally change the basic idea.
Huh so would Islam be the only religion to be *truly* monotheistic as calling on Saints/Angels/what have you is prohibited?
 
I think this is exactly right, and also a big part of why Islam spread so much. As an economist and a big student of economic history, I think a lot of people don't appreciate how modern middle class societies have such a different social structure to most of history. Prior to 1600, the vast, vast majority of people in every society eked out survival on. The edge of subsistence. The rich and powerful would have seemed untouchable to them, almost a species apart. And they were recognized as such by societal and legal structures. Then suddenly a belief system comes along that says you are spiritually equal to them in the eyes of divine? That is incredibly liberating psychologically.

And I think here lies the clue of why monotheism has dominated. Spiritual equality is much more likely to come from a monotheistic religion than a polytheistic one. If man is created by one God, they are much more likely to be equally created than if lots of Gods are involved.
India not being wholly Muslim or Buddhist disproves this entire notion entirely.

Edit: It's hard to understate this case, not only did Islam only slowly chipled away at Hindusitic communities over centuries of political dominance, but even Buddhism lost ground despite being a locally created religion that saw massive success outside of India. If anyone still believes in the social equality angle to explain the spread of religions, they are not doing it based on evidence.
 
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It wasn’t just one Emperor. It was the most longest-reigning, most militarily successful Emperor (possibly ever), and most administratively successful of his era. He also had the very visible scene of having come to the throne through “divine” help (whose was eventually decided to be the Christian God’s), and very visibly opposing two anti-Christian rulers (even if one only leaned that way after Constantine picked a fight with him) who he defeated. He also founded the new capital, an explicitly Christian city, which would be one of the greatest in the world for…oh roughly 300 years. And the greatest in the Christian world for longer.

And unlike a similarly successful Emperor like Aurelian Constantine reigned for 31 years. Far, far longer than the average.

Exactly! Yeah! That's what I was getting at in the long post a few pages back.

The significant aspect here is what he did, how long he reigned, and the dynasty he forged that could make his actions a policy lasting beyond one man. None of which is "monotheistic." Monotheism didn't take off at that point because of what it was, it took off because of what Constantine's career was.

A generation before Constantine started it, a period with 20 or 25 emperors in 50 years came to an end. One emperor's sincere belief would hardly have mattered in that context.

Diocletian did much better, with 20 years in power, but his signature religious policy? It was incompletely applied, canceled in part soon after he was out of power (I am thinking Galerius in 311 here), and was completely reversed by a very successful emperor/dynasty not long after. Constantine's policy, by contrast, benefitted from a comparable reign with more faithful heirs and less than 3 full years of Julian. Traditional Roman religion might have had a better chance of surviving if an alternate ~Julian (or an alternate first Christian emperor) had had a long successful reign and/or dynasty.

Well, maybe.

But point being, at the roots it's about the politics and continuity, not the particulars of Judaism and its offshoots.
 
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what if the meditations are published earlier or the enchideron earlier. I mean this could be Crossley's theological bias creeping into Epictetus. But he capitalizes god as a proper noun on Occasion in his translation as done Long in the Meditations and Long will also use a plural without capitalization so is this distinction in the text. I unfortunately have no latin and less greek( I know dodgson you can't have less greek if you have no latin, its a Johnson reference)
 
None of which is is "monotheistic." Monotheism didn't take off at that point because of what it was, it took off because of what Constantine's career was.
To be clear, I don't think that "monotheism" is uniquely positioned to defeat "polytheism" throughout the entire history of the world. That's nonsense, as East Asia+India demonstrate. As do other regions and times in history. At most I think that in the world of the Roman Empire, in the 3rd to 4th centuries the trend seems to be that a monotheist religion was heading toward triumph, or at minimum a pseudo-monotheist religion where one supreme deity was above all others. Ie, someone like Sol Invictus.

Traditional Roman religion might have had a better chance of surviving if an alternate ~Julian (or an alternate first Christian emperor) had had a long successful reign and/or dynasty.
The thing about Julian is...he didn't actually want "traditional" Roman religion. He wanted his version of the Roman religion, which was both extremely different from what had existed, and also borrowed a lot from Christianity to replace both. So you ended up with a religion no one followed. Except him. There's the infamous story of him trying to sacrifice an animal before going on campaign and just...not finding anyone who cooperate.
 
To be clear, I don't think that "monotheism" is uniquely positioned to defeat "polytheism" throughout the entire history of the world. That's nonsense, as East Asia+India demonstrate. As do other regions and times in history. At most I think that in the world of the Roman Empire, in the 3rd to 4th centuries the trend seems to be that a monotheist religion was heading toward triumph, or at minimum a pseudo-monotheist religion where one supreme deity was above all others. Ie, someone like Sol Invictus.

I would be very interested to see an argument to support monotheism already being on track for triumph in the 3rd century. Not having seen such a thing, I highly doubt it. No new system was poised for any meaningful replacement pre-Constantine, according to any historian I've encountered.

As to "pseudo-monotheism," there's no there there. Even the big Sol Invictus guy Aurelian cheerfully put priests of the deity as peers to other pontifexes. He allowed many priests of his new major deity to remain primarily priests of other gods and only secondarily focus on the cult of Sol Invictus. And that's beside the point that I've not seen the slightest sign that Aurelian's enthusiasm might entail a rejection of any part of Rome's existing religious practice.

So what would a long-term dynastic press for Sol Invictus look like? Just a new combination of chief gods of the Roman state, something that had happened several times before. All of the gods we are aware of would probably continue to be worshipped over the next couple centuries. A thousand years later some would have dropped from the picture or become significantly less important, as that did tend to happen. But unless something dramatic changed, the whole polytheistic system would remain in place, the Mediterranean would be very similar to modern India, and Sol Invictus would not be particularly special. He might be around, or might be the first of many gods to be temporarily elevated by a particular emperor, only to descend to obscurity.

There was no social or political mechanism to either invest Sol Invictus with permanent relevance or to induce a purge of "lesser deities."

No reason I can see why that would come to look much like a form of monotheism.

The thing about Julian is...he didn't actually want "traditional" Roman religion. He wanted his version of the Roman religion, which was both extremely different from what had existed, and also borrowed a lot from Christianity to replace both. So you ended up with a religion no one followed. Except him. There's the infamous story of him trying to sacrifice an animal before going on campaign and just...not finding anyone who cooperate.

Yeah, and I've said elsewhere that Julian was not just too little, but very close to too late.

But your argument partly misses the point. You could find people propitiating brownies in corners of 19th century Britain and France. That sort of thing has direct continuity with religious rituals to the little gods of Rome and its neighbors. Certainly well after Julian you had the Bishop of Milan complaining that Italy was full of nominal Christians who would run around gleefully indulging in the more popular pagan festivities. There were many people who hadn't stopped many rituals or even polytheistic worship in Julian's day, and in a hypothetical scenario where super-Julian is ascendent, many of those people are going to keep doing what they were doing. Julian doesn't need to actually reinstate the old order to enable dramatically more continuity with what remains of it.

Personally I don't think that quite avoids the outcome we saw, because there will be another Christian emperor before long, and in a unified Rome this would resume the squeeze. There were too many Christians and they weren't open to sharing the public space unless they were out of power.

But in a Julian-like scenario that came earlier? Sure. Traditional Roman religion hadn't been set in stone before - it had been in constant flux. Gradual change with occasional big shifts in the set of major gods - that was the default mode of Roman religious history. If Christianity fails to get critical mass (40% to pull a random number from the air), a Julian figure making up and funding rituals would mostly reset the Mediterranean system if they lasted, because the ambitious and upper classes would follow the politics and the money, and most people wouldn't even register which rituals great grandpa attended that were gone now.
 
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There is no "official" Hindu belief because there is no "official" Hinduism.

Polytheism was systematically and deliberately eliminated through various means; conquest, economic pressure, colonialism, and so on. The spread of monotheism wasn't natural. In India, for example, Muslim dynasties conquered nearly the whole subcontinent and forcibly converted a ton of people. Conversion by the sword was very common - look at Charlemagne in Saxony, a thirty year conquest.

This idea that "monotheism is inevitable" is just stupid and ahistorical. There were henotheistic cults within polytheistic religions and some random psuedo-monotheist offshoots here and there but there is no pattern showing polytheist religions coalescing around single deities. Christianity and Islam spread through blood and politics, not because their ideas were inherently more sensible.

Okay, then. Why was Monotheism and hard Henotheism in this unique position to spread so rapidly by fucking over the Polytheists?
 
Zoroastrianism destroyed/absorbed whatever pre-Zoroastrian polytheistic beliefs (probably) existed on the Iranian Plateau so thoroughly and effectively that we mostly know they're there because of comparisons with Hinduism and traces in the existing Zoroastrian documents (although this is strongly amplified by the fact that a lot of Zoroastrianism was destroyed/absorbed by Islam...). It would be like working out what the Greco-Roman pantheons were like through comparisons with the Scandinavians and a few saints who seemed to be remnants of pre-Christian deities.
Didn't Zoroastrianism hv other gods like Mithras, worshipped in their own right?.
 
I'm honestly curious, since as far as I've read and heard, those two regions became Muslim relatively peacefully
Not exactly for West Africa. While the zone of Islamic influence was quite far, fully Orthodox muslims were but a proportion of the urban population, Bori(Hausa Traditional Religion adherants) not only continued to be influencial but spread from Senegal to Sudan.

It is the Fulani Jihads that put an end to the Bori structure and limited them to a discriminated minority in Hausaland only. While Islam's further spread in Northern Nigeria was actually driven by the British using Muslim Hausa as secondary colonizers and in Senegambia it grew from like the half religion to the 98% as movements that fought against colonizers and mobilized the population like that, were Islamic movements. So the later being the exception.

Several smaller Jihads were also launched that I forget.
 
Not exactly for West Africa. While the zone of Islamic influence was quite far, fully Orthodox muslims were but a proportion of the urban population, Bori(Hausa Traditional Religion adherants) not only continued to be influencial but spread from Senegal to Sudan.

It is the Fulani Jihads that put an end to the Bori structure and limited them to a discriminated minority in Hausaland only. While Islam's further spread in Northern Nigeria was actually driven by the British using Muslim Hausa as secondary colonizers and in Senegambia it grew from like the half religion to the 98% as movements that fought against colonizers and mobilized the population like that, were Islamic movements. So the later being the exception.

Several smaller Jihads were also launched that I forget.
To be fair, AFAIK, the East Indies were the same. Traditional religious beliefs and customs persisted alongside Islam in both regions until the 19th century, I think.
 
So we have several gods; now who created those Gods? I think any philosophical ideation of theism will tend to monotheism for the same reason Aristotle did, it's just relatively convenient.

The other idea is effectively deify the universe itself, which as far as I'm aware is how the Hindus and Chinese approached devolping their religions(although I think Confucius believed in some kind of providential and personal God, please someone with more info here confirm if thats right). Having that thought go farther in the west might keep some form of polytheism around. Under a system of metaphysics you can have a massive diversity in how you view stuff like "lesser deities" like you see in basically every eastern religion.
 
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So we have several gods; now who created those Gods? I think any philosophical ideation of theism will tend to monotheism for the same reason Aristotle did, it's just relatively convenient.

The other idea is effectively deify the universe itself, which as far as I'm aware is how the Hindus and Chinese approached devolping their religions(although I think Confucius believed in a providential and personal God, please someone with more info here confirm if thats right). Having that thought go farther in the west might keep some form of polytheism around. Under a system of metaphysics you can have a massive diversity in how you view stuff like "lesser deities" like you see in basically every eastern religion.

Correct me if I'm wrong. However isn't Hinduism based somewhat on this concept of accepting multiple gods but there being an all powerful one supreme being?
 
So we have several gods; now who created those Gods? I think any philosophical ideation of theism will tend to monotheism for the same reason Aristotle did, it's just relatively convenient.

The other idea is effectively deify the universe itself, which as far as I'm aware is how the Hindus and Chinese approached devolping their religions(although I think Confucius believed in some kind of providential and personal God, please someone with more info here confirm if thats right). Having that thought go farther in the west might keep some form of polytheism around. Under a system of metaphysics you can have a massive diversity in how you view stuff like "lesser deities" like you see in basically every eastern religion.
I won't claim to be an expert on any specific polytheistic religion but why are there arguments like "how do polytheistic religions explain the existence of multiple gods"?

Seriously, Greek mythology has extensive stories on that already. This is not exactly even secret knowledge, lol.

If you mean "god always existed" is a better answer than "Gaia and others emerged from Chaos and made other gods" I think it's fairly subjective.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong. However isn't Hinduism based somewhat on this concept of accepting multiple gods but there being an all powerful one supreme being?
My own understanding of Brahman is that it is non personal and all encompassing, but I'm not going to pretend I understand more then an tittle of the breadth of Hindu theology. But you're right, I don't think there is any classically polytheistic tradition remaining in India(in the Rig-Veda sense at least) they all embrace some loose form of panthestic semi monotheism that Plato wouldn't greatly disagree with.
 
The idea of phisophical weakness of some polytheistic faiths is floated around and the evidence used also includes "monotheistic" or even "atheistic" philosophical schools like the ones seen in ancient Greece.

If this argument is taken as valid, then why didn't Greco-Roman polytheism naturally shift in a new direction by itself given those schools constantly existed and had some sway over some of the Greek and Roman intellectual or political elites? Clearly it's not as if you were automatically considered pariah or ostracized for holding unto some of those heterodox views on the nature of gods, yet apparently the weakness of the message of these Greco-Roman religious sphere expressed itself with a relatively clean break and shift into another religious tradition that rejected a lot of the past religious tradition and not through gradual shift.

To me something is amiss under this perspectie.
 
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