The AHC is as simple as the title. Prevent the Vietnam War, and have a Vietnam with Ho Chi Minh as it’s leader. Have the two be allies.
AHC: Warmest Possible Vietnamese-American relations
- Thread starter SirHalifax
- Start date
Pretty easily, FDR and/or truman say the french to fuck off in their impealistic plans and left all East Asia colonies being independent, say and done
Interesting. Vietnam and the US had a good relationship for a few years, so perhaps Voetman could be seen as the “good commies”
With some good propaganda(especially if china is very sable ratting) they can sell him as a 'social democrat' no USA average citizen would tell them apart anyway
If the US plays it's cards right, then Vietnam could be a battleground for China, the Soviet Union and the United States to have influence over. When talking about the Viet Minh, it's important to remember that they were nationalists first, communist second. They only adopted Communism because of it's anti-imperialist leanings. This alternate Vietnam, with enough US influence, could be like an Asian Yugoslavia, especially since historically, Vietnam has reviled the idea of China having influence over them.
After his 1940 heart attack, FDR stops drinking and smoking then switches to a healthier diet to prolong his life. While serving out his fourth term he forces the French to give up their colonies in Indochina, and Vietnam becomes independent with U.S. recognition. The Vietnam War is butterflied and the US is viewed as a liberator in Vietnam.
OK. During his years working for the Comintern in Moscow, Ho comes under Cheka suspicion, and is required to "inform" on some of his colleagues, including his own lover. Despite this, he is himself sent to the Gulag.
Eventually he gets out and returns to Vietnam, but is not a Communist any more. Under US pressure, France grants independence to Indochina in 1949. Ho leads the new nationalist government, which is hostile to Red China and to the local Communists, who are dependent on China.
Eventually he gets out and returns to Vietnam, but is not a Communist any more. Under US pressure, France grants independence to Indochina in 1949. Ho leads the new nationalist government, which is hostile to Red China and to the local Communists, who are dependent on China.
Last edited:
FDR survives and finishes a third term. In that way, U.S. foreign policy would be focused on pressuring France and Britain to grant independence for their colonies. In that case, the Vietnam War, Algerian War of Independence, Malayan Emergency, etc. would be butterflied away.
Eisenhower offers Ho Chi Minh a deal: you purge your movement of all Communists, and I'll give you Marshall Plan-levels of foreign aid.
Uncle Ho doesn't try to liquidate his non-communist allies during the August Revolution. Seriously, that was such a terrible own goal.
Had the French been defeated by this point? At the time it may have seemed so, but he should have taken to time to confirm that as fact so that he doesn't kick off a civil war within Vietnamese society right on time for the French Army to roll up on Hanoi.
Did it work? No, and many of his former allies and potential allies either made common cause with the French or tried fighting against both of them.
Did it forever splinter the nationalist cause? Yes, the Viet Minh's big tent collapsed in on itself because Uncle Ho took a saw to the tent poles.
Did it catapult Vietnam's quest for independence into the wider context of the Cold War? Yes, it's entirely unreasonable to think America wouldn't take issue with this and assume that the Viet Minh are loyal to Moscow (because they really are acting like it).
Had the French been defeated by this point? At the time it may have seemed so, but he should have taken to time to confirm that as fact so that he doesn't kick off a civil war within Vietnamese society right on time for the French Army to roll up on Hanoi.
Did it work? No, and many of his former allies and potential allies either made common cause with the French or tried fighting against both of them.
Did it forever splinter the nationalist cause? Yes, the Viet Minh's big tent collapsed in on itself because Uncle Ho took a saw to the tent poles.
Did it catapult Vietnam's quest for independence into the wider context of the Cold War? Yes, it's entirely unreasonable to think America wouldn't take issue with this and assume that the Viet Minh are loyal to Moscow (because they really are acting like it).
Henry Wallace manages to remain VP for FDR's fourth term, FDR dies, and Wallace supports Ho and Vietnam against the French. Wallace was ardently anti-colonialism and was willing to trust communists. Perhaps Wallace's support is enough to not freak out Ho enough to believe he needs to purge his allies, like @SealTheRealDeal said above.
Ho purged his allies because he wanted to and felt like he could get away with it, not because of anything America related.
That's the communist Vietnamese version of events, which is frankly just propaganda, they were in actuality dedicated Stalinists and destroyed the actual nationalist parties. America didn't support the Viet Minh like we did with Yugoslavia because Ho Chi Minh was much closer to the USSR than Tito was.
Imperial Japan wins World War II in the Pacific and the Communist-Liberal alliance in Asia holds up for longer.
Yeah, the idea that Ho Chi Minh was just this apolitical nationalist who became a Communist because America was mean to him has little basis. But I'm not sure it's the "Communist Vietnamese version of events." Last I checked, the Communist Party of Vietnam is pretty open about being Communist and proud of it! Ho Chi Minh thought is taken seriously in Vietnam! I do not think the CPV would take very kindly to someone saying Ho Chi Minh was not a real Marxist-Leninist.
In contrast, Americans often say the same thing about Fidel Castro - and IMO a lot of this comes off as well-meaning Americans (lamenting their own foreign policy towards national liberation movements) inadvertently denying those people intellectual and ideological agency.
Yeah, the idea that Ho Chi Minh was just this apolitical nationalist who became a Communist because America was mean to him has little basis. But I'm not sure it's the "Communist Vietnamese version of events." Last I checked, the Communist Party of Vietnam is pretty open about being Communist and proud of it! Ho Chi Minh thought is taken seriously in Vietnam! I do not think the CPV would take very kindly to someone saying Ho Chi Minh was not a real Marxist-Leninist.
In contrast, Americans often say the same thing about Fidel Castro - and IMO a lot of this comes off as well-meaning Americans (lamenting their own foreign policy towards national liberation movements) inadvertently denying those people intellectual and ideological agency.
Also, a lot of people reading WAY too much into the OSS-Viet Minh alliance. The OSS had been getting it's intel from sources within the Vichy administration, but after Japanese finally liquidated the French colonial government in March of 1945 the OSS needed a new source of intel, the Viet-Minh meanwhile needed material aid, special operations advisors, and the appearance of foreign acknowledgement. It was an alliance of convenience for both sides, and there wasn't too much more to it.
Which is to say America didn't really have a substantial anti-colonial agenda* and the Viet Minh weren't trying to recreate the American experiment**.
*sure FDR said somethings and the USN somewhat tried to limit the involvement of the British in the final stages of the Pacific War, but that hardly constitutes a concrete policy direction
**yes, Uncle Ho's declaration of independence was basically a copy paste of the American one, but that is largely due to the fact that the OSS help him draft it
mial42
Gone Fishin'
The US/Vietnam relationship is pretty good OTL, and has been since the 1990s. A more aggressive China is probably what's needed to push the two from "informal cooperation" to "allies." So some POD that butterflies the Vietnam War and the Sino-American rapprochement or butterflies the Vietnam War and makes China get stronger earlier. There are a multitude of possibilities for both.
EDIT: Wait, hard to have that happen in the same time frame as Ho Chi Minh being leader. Probably need something more "out there" like an earlier and more serious Chinese invasion, but the odds of that happening are low, thanks to the USSR's relationship with both and generally good relations between the PRC and PRV pre-Sino-Soviet split.
EDIT: Wait, hard to have that happen in the same time frame as Ho Chi Minh being leader. Probably need something more "out there" like an earlier and more serious Chinese invasion, but the odds of that happening are low, thanks to the USSR's relationship with both and generally good relations between the PRC and PRV pre-Sino-Soviet split.