How do you engineer a situation were the US joins a war on the side of the Germans, after 1900?
AHC: "Steuben, we are here!"
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Replace wilson with a more pro german president, replace Kaiser bill with some one who understood diplomacy, and have the british and the french screw up their diplomatic efforts in the americas.
Its difficult but doable, the primary requirement is that the british or the french have to screw up bad.
Its difficult but doable, the primary requirement is that the british or the french have to screw up bad.
That was what I was thinking, though hoping for a scenario that doesnt leave much of the world irradiated.
Also have the German Army not commit any "atrocities" in Belgium and have their navy not utilize unrestricted submarine warfare
usertron2020
Donor
You need a pre-1900 POD.
This isn't plausible, but here goes:
1) The British and French Empires intervene on the side of the Confederacy, the Union loses the war
2) The British fails to pass the Great Reform Act of 1867 for years to come
3) The Austro-Prussian War is still a Prussian victory, but bloodier
4) Napoleon III wins a limited victory (he survives in power and keeps Alsace-Lorraine) while the Prussians unite Germany
5) CSA's internal contradictions lead to dystopia and fragmentation
6) Taking advantage, the Union goes for Round 2 and wins, though in an even bloodier fashion than OTL's ACW
7) During ACW 2, the French and British support the CSA in everything short of war. Horrible diplomacy and statecraft, I know. We'll say Palmerston lives to be 100.
8) A united Germany, sensing a diplomatic opportunity, provides 0% loans to the USA to alleviate the staggering costs of ACW 2.
9) Post-ACW 2 Union victory, the USA is totally disgusted with the French and British. Once in a losing war is bad enough, but two bloodbaths in a row with the BE and FE supporting the Confederates is too much.
10) USA signs multiple trade deals with Germany.
11) German immigration increases to the USA.
12) America commits itself to a first class blue water navy years earlier than OTL. Starting in 1890 rather than in baby steps in 1880.
13) Assuming all else stays the same (doubtful), WWI starts on schedule, a year after the Germans crack the secret of synthesizing nitrates.
14) In a Cold War for decades, the USA announces it will not recognize the allied blockade of Europe.
The fuse is lit...
I know! I know! Enough holes to sail a fleet of battleships through, and most of this is from Turtledove (I'm refusing to accept his ACW 2 results, though). Best I could come up with in a few minutes.
Geon
Donor
Russian Invasion
Here's a possibility based on one or two threads on this board.
Geon
Here's a possibility based on one or two threads on this board.
- 1925 - Russian "volunteers" invade Eastern Poland and successfully take most of that area including entering Eastern Prussia. Germany, in political turmoil and not having an adequate army to defend itself is forced to accept the conquest.
- 1926 - stories of "ethnic cleansing" by Russians in East Prussia in order to make way for Russian citizens enrage the German Weimar Republic. They decide it is now necessary to re-negotiate the Versailles Treaty.
- 1926 - The results of the negotiations are mixed. France absolutely does not want Germany to re-arm and insists the Germans honor the existing treaty. Britain and the United States led by President Theodore Roosevelt (Roosevelt wins the 1920 presidential elections) believe there must be some "re-adjustment" of the treaty to give Germany some leeway in defending itself. After some considerable and at times hot-tempered discussions several concessions are made. Germany can reconstitute the General Staff and can increase its army by 100,000. She may also keep 200 tanks and 100 fighter aircraft in her armed forces. However the limits on Germany's navy remain as do the terms for war reparations only on a longer and more equitable schedule.
- 1927 - Riots break out in several Polish cities and once more Russian "volunteers" are invited to "aid the struggling Proletariat." Poland, recognizing it is being absorbed piece by piece into Russia looks westward for aid. Poland appeals both to Germany and to France, Britain, and the U.S.. Aid is sent from all the Western Allies including Germany in the form of weapons and supplies. Stalin accuses the West of interfering in Poland's internal affairs.
- 1929 - The Polish civil war rages for two years with the last bastion - Warsaw falling late in the year. Poland is made an "ally" of Russia. Germany now faces a Russian-occupied Poland. Germany has been steadily re-arming for the last three years but knows it cannot stand against a determined Russian assault. It turns to the Western Allies for help. All three of the Western Allies - even France who also sees the writing on the wall - agree to a mutual defense pact with Germany and warn Russia that it will face "the combined might of the West." TR rallies an uncertain and sometimes hostile American public with the words, "We did not shed the blood of our sons to end German militarism only to have it replaced with atheistic Bolshevism!" A U.S. military build up begins which somewhat offsets the oncoming Great Depression.
- 1931 - An "incident" is staged on the border of Germany/Poland by members of the Russian Army. Claiming Germany is seeking to regain hegemony in the east the Russian Army invades Germany. Stalin is gambling that war-weary populations in London, Paris, and Washington, won't want to waste more blood on Germany. For three months Germany fights on alone against the Russians and to the Russians immense surprise manages to hold them at a line on the Elbe River. Then in the middle of the year Theodore Roosevelt leads the charge (pardon the pun) and declares the U.S. will not stand by and leave Germany to face "the ruthless Bolsheviks" alone. The U.S., the U.K., and - reluctantly - France agree to come to Germany's aid and troops start arriving across the border. Remembering the contributions of Frederich Wilhelm von Steuben in the American Revolution the New AEF enters Germany with the cry "von Stueben we are here! Your nation shall not fall"
Geon
The USSR does not have the power to do what you propose and it is out of character for Stalin. Russia hadn't industrialized and modernized sufficiently yet in the late twenties and early thirties to start messing with Europe like this. Also, Stalin was a cautious man who would not risk his own power by randomly pissing off all Western nations at once and then initiating an armed conflict with them he could never hope to win.
RodentRevolution
Banned
Throw in some Al Capone <3 Stalin slash fiction and Stalin succumbs to the effects of >second stage< (correction neurosyphillis occurs much later than the second stage ooops) Syphilis and you are golden. True the USSR has not been remotely adequately prepared for such conflict but that simply makes the "Ace Power Politician" more likely to commit his country to liberate Germany not less.
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shiftygiant
Gone Fishin'
The Kaiser's 1908 interview doesn't go tits up, meaning he doesn't fuck up relations with Britain and end up king of shit mountain. The Venezuelan crisis of 1902 is avoided by a McKinley led presidency; tensions arise, but the American's don't step in directly.
Virtually impossible IMO
Britain and the US shared too many simularities on too many levels and the US ruling families are mostly Anglo Saxon.
Diplomacy, Trade, Law, language, religion - pretty much all the same
Perhaps an Earlier POD going back to the war of 1812?
The Battle of New Orleans should have been a British victory - it was only a handful of blindingly stupid command decisions on the part of the British commanders that stopped the Redcoats from swarming over the ramparts that the militia had already started to abandon.
Have a British Victory ere and this results in a continuation of the '1812' war followed by an embarrising peace terms after France is defeated in 1815 and this results in much worse relationship going forwards.
But then of course this becomes a pre 1900 Discussion
Britain and the US shared too many simularities on too many levels and the US ruling families are mostly Anglo Saxon.
Diplomacy, Trade, Law, language, religion - pretty much all the same
Perhaps an Earlier POD going back to the war of 1812?
The Battle of New Orleans should have been a British victory - it was only a handful of blindingly stupid command decisions on the part of the British commanders that stopped the Redcoats from swarming over the ramparts that the militia had already started to abandon.
Have a British Victory ere and this results in a continuation of the '1812' war followed by an embarrising peace terms after France is defeated in 1815 and this results in much worse relationship going forwards.
But then of course this becomes a pre 1900 Discussion
If we're talking about getting the US to intervene on the German side in a war that is, for all intents and purposes, OTL's WW1, the hurdles to overcome are almost impossible. Britain is going to do everything in its power to maintain at least cordial relations with the US, since in the event of war Canada is (basically) unsalvageable.
That said, with a pre-1900 POD, you might be able to get an alt-WW1 taking place with a few shifted players. For example, if the Franco-Prussian war ends in a draw, Napoleon III stays in power, though Germany still unites anyway (this time due to fears about a revanchist France). Some kind of Franco-British split occurs (either through Napoleon III getting too aggressive in the Americas, or Napoleon IV surviving to take the throne). At the same time, the UK starts pivoting to Germany (Alfred survives longer?) as both a bulwark against France and an increasingly aggressive Russia (with France pivoting to Russia for the same). No idea what A-H is doing, could go either way.
Come 1900+, some kind of shit hits the fan and war breaks out, with the Anglo-German bloc vs. the Franco-Russian bloc. Again, something breaks, and you see the US intervene on the side of the British/Germans.
That said, with a pre-1900 POD, you might be able to get an alt-WW1 taking place with a few shifted players. For example, if the Franco-Prussian war ends in a draw, Napoleon III stays in power, though Germany still unites anyway (this time due to fears about a revanchist France). Some kind of Franco-British split occurs (either through Napoleon III getting too aggressive in the Americas, or Napoleon IV surviving to take the throne). At the same time, the UK starts pivoting to Germany (Alfred survives longer?) as both a bulwark against France and an increasingly aggressive Russia (with France pivoting to Russia for the same). No idea what A-H is doing, could go either way.
Come 1900+, some kind of shit hits the fan and war breaks out, with the Anglo-German bloc vs. the Franco-Russian bloc. Again, something breaks, and you see the US intervene on the side of the British/Germans.
shiftygiant
Gone Fishin'
America remains benevolently neutral through the First World War. Someone other than Wilson as President or Germany doesn't screw the pooch diplomatically with the US. After the war and through the interwar, Germany and America build up a good trade relation, which sours relations with the UK. Germany goes to war with the Bolsheviks in Russia, America backing Germany.