AHC Pagan Poland and Russia

[Gustavus Adolphus]

Hey so here is a challenge is there a way to get a pagan poland and Russia with a pod from the 8th century and if so how. I am thinking maybe a good pod is when rurik’s take over they leave the rus a more centralized state and then a Vladimir type figure comes and is able to implement religious reforms or even Vladimir the great is able to go through with his reforms of the Slavic faith and have it be accepted.

Though the latter sounds more unlikely to happen if for some reason Rus remain pagan and let’s say because rus are pagan stuff happens maybe Vikings are more successful or the Slavs of Pomerania are able to hold out against the hre somehow but in any case if we end up with a pagan Eastern Europe an orthodox southeastern Europe and a catholic western and Central Europe what ramifications would such a tripartite split have on history and is such a split possible with a pod in the 8th preferably 9th century or later.

Bonus points if Catholic Church is split into heresies akin to Protestant vs catholic not the same butterflies after all but something similar

 

[Arkenfolm]

I don't think it's possible to keep Poland from being Christianized. My impression of events is that the conversion of the Franks and their subsequent success triggered a slow "domino effect" where it simply made more sense to convert for alliances and economic benefit that the wealthier state next door offered, like for Poland this was Germany/Saxony, for the Saxons this was the Frankish Empire, etc. It didn't help matters that the Christian states could be exceptionally aggressive and rewarded conversion while punishing those who refused.

Unfortunately, a lot of modern Germany already converted by the 8th century, but starting in 700 there's still a lot of ways to nerf the Frankish Empire and keep them from expanding while (mostly) peacefully interacting with pagan lands in modern Germany as well as bordering Slavs that don't involve conversion. Obviously they can't be too weak or the Muslims will conquer them and add another potential faith to convert too. We could also have a worse Viking Age that devastates the Anglo-Saxons and Celts of the British Isles.

So perhaps that with more economic development you'd have a parallel organization to Christianity emerge to govern religious affairs. I could see syncretic elements of Christianity seep into it like with doctrines similar to Jesus's birth and resurrection are prominent. This would include things like a formalized liturgy, tithes, and likely the idea that each pagan god is simply an element or expression of one God. It could superficially resemble Julian the Apostate's attempted reform. Networks of priests or other pagan clergy (corresponding to various types of monks, friars, etc. or perhaps through parallel evolution the types of Hindu religious figures) would spread this religion that would appeal to educated people, while their own rituals and learning would impress the peasants and the masses.

This would likely begin in Saxony and would spread to other Germanic lands. Eventually it would spread to the West Slavs where they would learn about this faith through contact with pagan clergy and their leadership would realize the potential it has to help them rule while not provoking too big of a backlash among conservative elite compared to Christianity. The Russians would convert the same way a century later or so.

People compare "pagan reformations" like this to Hinduism, which I'd say is about right. You'd have a huge diversity in traditions and various spectrums of belief. Christianity plays the role Islam did in the development of Hinduism.

 

[Gloss]

I don't think it's possible to keep Poland from being Christianized. My impression of events is that the conversion of the Franks and their subsequent success triggered a slow "domino effect" where it simply made more sense to convert for alliances and economic benefit that the wealthier state next door offered, like for Poland this was Germany/Saxony, for the Saxons this was the Frankish Empire, etc. It didn't help matters that the Christian states could be exceptionally aggressive and rewarded conversion while punishing those who refused.

Unfortunately, a lot of modern Germany already converted by the 8th century, but starting in 700 there's still a lot of ways to nerf the Frankish Empire and keep them from expanding while (mostly) peacefully interacting with pagan lands in modern Germany as well as bordering Slavs that don't involve conversion. Obviously they can't be too weak or the Muslims will conquer them and add another potential faith to convert too. We could also have a worse Viking Age that devastates the Anglo-Saxons and Celts of the British Isles.

So perhaps that with more economic development you'd have a parallel organization to Christianity emerge to govern religious affairs. I could see syncretic elements of Christianity seep into it like with doctrines similar to Jesus's birth and resurrection are prominent. This would include things like a formalized liturgy, tithes, and likely the idea that each pagan god is simply an element or expression of one God. It could superficially resemble Julian the Apostate's attempted reform. Networks of priests or other pagan clergy (corresponding to various types of monks, friars, etc. or perhaps through parallel evolution the types of Hindu religious figures) would spread this religion that would appeal to educated people, while their own rituals and learning would impress the peasants and the masses.

This would likely begin in Saxony and would spread to other Germanic lands. Eventually it would spread to the West Slavs where they would learn about this faith through contact with pagan clergy and their leadership would realize the potential it has to help them rule while not provoking too big of a backlash among conservative elite compared to Christianity. The Russians would convert the same way a century later or so.

People compare "pagan reformations" like this to Hinduism, which I'd say is about right. You'd have a huge diversity in traditions and various spectrums of belief. Christianity plays the role Islam did in the development of Hinduism.

For the Slavs I'd rather look at the Bulgars, for the Saxon-Frankish sphere I think an earlier POD is more ideal.

 

[Alcatur]

Pagan Poland from AH perspective is impossible to answer as we know so little of it. We know nothing of its religion*, political division before 966. Christianity came before the country was really created. So internal conditions are borderline impossible to predict.

Strong external pagan source would be needed, country which would play similar role as germany did in the creation of Poland, and the nature of this country would be greatly influenced by this element.

*no seriously, most works are either XX century creation, guesswork, or refer to Christianized Slavic religion, transformed by christian influence.